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Update: The NY Times reports five teenagers have been charged in the Lower East Side murder of Nicole deFresne; the teens ranged in age from 15-19, and are from Brooklyn, Manhattan, and Staten Island. The shooter appears to be a 19 year-old male. Police Commmissioner Raymond Kelly told reporters, "Some statements [from the suspects] have been made." He also added that tips from "concerned citizens" led to the arrests, but he didn't "want to get into it any more specifically than that."
Gothamist on the murder: Last Friday's post and from today.
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thank god for quick police work. question: what's the appropriate penalty for a murder/robbery/assualt? i mean, the kid who pulled the trigger definitely deserves life in prison, but what about the other kids who were there? does participating in a wolf pack like that automatically sign you up to do the same bid?
Well, given that the suspects are under 18, some will go to juvie - unless the DA's office decides to try them as adults (may be based on past records, etc). Also, some of the others might work out deals to convict the shooter. I'm thinking DA's office would want to make the statement that crime does not pay and will try to nail the others with severe sentences.
oh totally- it's going to be adult court and long sentences for everyone- except maybe the first one to flip- but that's not my question. my question is what is just- what is the right sentence?
give the shooter the chair. this is a perfect case for the death penalty. let the s.o.b. fry. let his accomplices watch. i'll feel no remorse for him.
i'm no supporter of the death penalty, but I also have no sympathy for those guilty that are going to be xecuted
It depends on what you mean by "right." If you are asking what the applicable sentence range is- the answer is- it depends on if the shooting was intentional. (Meaning the shooter intended to fire the gun to harm/kill the victim). If it was intentional- 25 to life most likely.
As to the others involved, they could be considered parties to the offense if they intended the shooting to occur- and encouraged or aided the conduct. Meaning- they get the same sentence (theoretically).
As to what is "right" as in the morally right sentence-- that's anyone's opinion.
I'm really glad they caught the shooter, but does 1010wins.com have to make the report end with what sounds like a commercial for her? Am I the only one who thinks that's just a little bit weird?
if you're going to take someone's life over a purse, your life isn't worth sparing
I knew someone would squeal. Once we hit the first school day. It's impossible for that many teenagers not to tell others.
The obvious question: if this murder took place in some other neighborhood, if the victim was not a white actress, would the media (and gothamist) be giving it such attention? If not, why not? There were 564 murders last year. The crime rate continues to decrease from the early 90's when it was consistently over 2,000 per year. Still, that's an average of over 10 per week. Stop and think about why - and if - this particular crime deserves so much attention.
O, I'm sure they'll fry in a very public circus, for after all: (1) the system is fair; (2) what DA doesn't love to make a career pandering to the mob and (3)she was "stunning."
thirdparty,
Cause she was a beautiful woman who died so tragically. Don't think race was an issue.
there is no death penalty in NY state, fyi
ed209, the reason she's been given media attention is the same reason Sarah Fox when she went missing and was eventually found dead. She's white. She's young. And her death is everyone's fantasy worst fear of what can happen in a city. The fact that colored teens were involved perpetuates the fear.
thirdparty is 100% right. Media attention is put on her because of her race and because of her looks. Anyone thinking this case is really that important is delluded. People die every day and nary do people make a peep. A guy gets gunned down in a Chelsea warehouse and people are shocked, but the outrage is not the same.
As much as we don't want to admit that race and looks play a factor, they indeed do. And in this case, while I feel sorry for Denise's family and friends I think that in the big picture focusing more attention on her as opposed to other people who die or go missing is really selfish and callous.
I feel the same way about the family who begged for a heart transplant in the media and leap-frogged ahead of others in the donor pool. So as a society people with media connections are more important and deserve to "break the rules" to save their lives? Or highlight their death.
Black teens get gunned down on a roof going to a party and doing not much else and that's excusable. A white actress taunts a gunman and get killed and we should be outraged.
Condolences towards anyone who looses a loved one. But lets get real here. Race, looks, and media connections have a big role to play in hyped things like this. To prenten otherwise is to hide one's head in the sand.
PS: The gunman in this shooting should get life in prison. His co-horts should get some sentence, but nothing as extreme as life.
actually, the baby that got that heart earlier in the week went through the national organ bank- they didn't jump the line. in fact, the heart came from minneapolis, whereas the news coverage was strictly local to new york.
and yep- race is always an issue- but it's not the only issue. murders in low-crime areas always get more coverage. stranger-murders always get more coverage. and murders with witnesses always get more coverage.
How many of those 500 murders last year were committed by randoms? Many of the ones I read about in the middle of the metro section are either drug-related or between estranged lovers. Every murder is newsworthy, but when there are 10 per week, the press will inevitably cover the unique ones--i.e. randoms, lower-crime areas, gruesome circumstances, etc. I agree on the race thing but it is one factor among many.
Nicole,
Justice will be served.
Umm...I thought this case got all this media attention was because she said,"What are you going to do, shoot me?"and got killed. It's sad, but hopefully this publicity will save another person from losing his or her life in a similar situation, regardless of his/her race or gender.
Race and the fact that there are yuppie restaurants in the area, I think those are the reasons. Two people have been shot on Franklin & Eastern Parkway recently, one of which was covered by the news. Does anyone care? Doubtfully. How many Manhattanites even know where Eastern Parkway is? What about East New York and Brownsville? People get killed there all the time, no one cares. It' sad.
On my walk home tonight, I saw a copcar pull up in front of three kids talking on their stoop and shine the spotlight in their faces. They wanted to know what they were doing. "We live here, we're just talking," was the reply. They were not white. It made me sad.
It does seem that muggings have been occuring a lot more frequently now.
Anyone else notice the odd juxtaposition of the photo of the previous Gothamist entry ("Auditioning to be a Reenactor")?
The fact is that the editors of the Post or producers at Ch. 4 have more in common with someone like Nicole than they do with people in a housing project or poor neighborhood who gets killed. Therefore, they are more likely to pay attention to the details of a case like her's. That's why it gets attention. It's the same reason why an editor at the Times would cover the "battle" between Gawker and MediaBistro. Do you think the average reader cares or should care? Not necessarily. But those sites are read disproportionally by writers and editors, therefore their actions will be news. Stories reflect the values of the people writing them, not the subjects profiled.
I'm a bit shocked at the extreme media attention too, but it really hit me this morning when I suddenly saw the story on NBC's Today show. Is this really a national story? More so than any other random mugging/murder in Manhattan? I'm not trying to diminish the tragedy of it, but national coverage?! Why? Because she was an aspiring actress and attractive? The Post sticking her on their cover is one thing -- and expected. But Today? I was truly shocked. And while I wasn't paying 100% attention during the entire report, I'm not even sure that the NBC reporter mentioned her remark challenging the assailant to shoot her.
What does this story say to the country about New York, by the way? If I'm somebody in "the heartland," I'm sure as hell thinking that NYC is as dangerous as it ever was before.
It's just a matter of time before the term "wilding" is resurrected. Also, the LES below Houston and west of the Bowery is not now, nor has it ever been, a low crime area. That is a pipe dream (ha!) developed to assuage the concern of suburban parents.
I believe that the death penalty in NY State was stuck down on June 24th 2004.
I think it's safe to say that this guy and his accomplices won't be getting out anytime soon.
IMO, The media attention is due to her being an Engaged and upcoming actress. I think Every life deserves attention, but the "News" media is playing this out for ratings. In any case, now the the Michael Jackson "Trial of the Century" is taking place, I'm sure this will fade from the public view.
I do hope that the Family and friends can get some measure of closure now that an arrest has been made an procescution pending.
"Cause she was a beautiful woman who died so tragically. Don't think race was an issue."
So when an ugly woman dies, what adverb should we attach? "Died amusingly"?
You know, pretty can matter in line at a club, but when it determines the newsworthiness of your death, well, wonder not why the world loathes us so.
If race didn't matter, the Post wouldn't drop all pretense of journalistic objectivity like a hooker drops her panties for a 10-spot, and refer to the murder suspect as a "teen punk" and a "hood".
So, white girl = "stunning". Black suspect = "hood" and "teen punk".
This is why I am against the death penalty, not because I don't believe some deserve it, but because all humans are biased, prejudiced freaks who can't control their base impulses long enough to have a single rational thought.
Correction: make that east of the bowery.
Also: the attention is due to the fact that she was "engaged" and "an upcoming actress"? Aren't half the bartenders and waitresses in NYC? I really don't understand the buy-in to this tripe.
Additionally, as was educated at HARVARD FUCKING LAW SCHOOL, I am well aware that the death penalty does not exist in NY, but these kids will fry nonetheless.
Also, I point out that in a very similar situation in 1989 a group of black and puerto rican kids were coralled for an attack in Central Park on an "engaged" and "up and coming" investment banker -- oddly enough WHITE as well. It was a frame-up.
Sorry, I am livid. That should read: As I was educated.
Thank you.
>>"...as I was educated at HARVARD FUCKING LAW SCHOOL..."
You were just waiting for that little info-drop, weren't you?
"As to what is "right" as in the morally right sentence-- that's anyone's opinion."
My opinion is that His sentance should be a bullet to the gut and let him bleed to death on Stanton street.
Seems fair to me.
coldhearted murder = coldhearted justice.
But that will never happen in our pussified society.
Actually Moe Golden naaah. I don't even practice law. Don't have the stomach for it, and HLS has been an embarassment for quite some time.
I've just seen this mob mentality (too many times) before, and I hate it.
Haywood: Do you think he should yelp: What are you gonna do shoot me first? I mean maybe if he doesn't he could avoid being shot.
Harvard? I love the street-perspective from a harvard-educated young urban professional! The system would work--if the police and judiciary system actually followed the procedure properly (and they don't--ever been to jail before?).
Bite your tongue, dear. I assure you La D' has more street in her than all the other commenters here combined.
Not young but plenty street. Grew up in Brooklyn. Moved to Ave C c. 1980. Went from public school to law school. Paid my dues and my own school tuition. It's the best of both worlds a hard life and a good education. Can't beat it. O yeah, the system wouldn't work if it were "followed properly" cause there ain't been no properly since John Jay (look it up).
Thanks Ermmedeur. I'm too used to fighting my battles alone.
"Additionally, as was educated at HARVARD FUCKING LAW SCHOOL, I am well aware that the death penalty does not exist in NY, but these kids will fry nonetheless."
No Fucking Kidding?
(ahem)
Sorry, coudn't resist.
How? In Hell maybe, but until the Law gets "Fixed" (Another topic) it won't happen in NY...
Metaphorically.
I'll bite my tongue. (I'm not afriad to admit I've overspoken) But because you grew up in Brooklyn and lived on ave C doesn't mean you've got more "street"--just as you say your harvard law school education doesn't take away "street."
In my book, "street" doesn't mean someone living on the LES in the 80s. There are little old grannies with shopping carts who live in all kinds of tough neighborhoods, but I wouldn't exactly call them "street."
In my book, street means getting handcuffed at least once in your life. Or at least sitting inside of a police car. But simply living on shady street doesn't make anyone more street today, yesterday or two decades ago.
[insert campy gang fight on the train from an 80s movie--FUN! :-P]
Here's a little something that might be helpful for you: I think street cred is a bullshit concept, and if you are not smart enough to figure out another way to go you deserve to suffer the fate that surely will await you. The alleged shooter is living proof of that.
East 3 & Avenue C, and it was probably a littler earlier because I was somewhere else in the 80s, was no fun -- unless you have a penchant for guns, works, rats and no heat or hot water. I certainly wouldn't want my kid living there.
"Street" is someone who can think on their feet, not get taken by a con (easily, at least), and, knows that the answer to every question is "Yes, Sir" when staring at the business end of a .357 Taurus.
Shame shame, kids!
"Street" is a hardened slurry made up of sand or rocks, a filler of limestone and other materials. Usually markings of white or yellow paint are applied to signify traffic direction and pedestrian crossings.
Don't get me started on being "sidewalk." Yo.
These animals should fry, and yes NY has had the death penalty since 1960 -it's just never used because of the liberal judges. Fry these animals.
Mr. Box, in this we agree: These days unconstitutional and legal appear to be synonymous.
I just saw this actress on a movie or television recently. I remember she is a striking resemblance to "Marsha Brady" Maureen... What show was that I saw her?
"This has nothing to do with where you're from, and everything to do with not being street smart."
I could not say it any better. YOU CAN'T TAME A WILD BEAST. And NYC is the king of the urban jungle... You out of towers have a lot to learn about NYC gentrification, and it's said to say a lot of this going to continue to happen. You hipsters just don't have a clue... I'm from the urban life, I know what’s happening on the streets, and let me tell you the REAL NATIVES are restless... It's only going to get worse before it gets better. I mean you obviously have no clue when million dollar restaurants open next to a methadone clinic... All I can say look what happened to Siegfried and Roy... Those fools thought they tamed the kings of the jungle and looked what happened. You elitists better wake up and smell the urine. I regret a life has been lost in a stupid way, but it was her that was stupid, ya fuck with the bull, you get the horn. I mean, I read a eulogy from one of her friends that stated
"Once she chased after a thief who stole money from a sleeping subway beggar, he said.
"She freaked out on him -- she took the money and yelled at him," Zeller said.
We should not blame the Thugs; they own the streets of the LES. They always have, no matter how many million dollar condos are built. You need to understand that and RESPECT that. The minute you forget it or think differently, REALITY will bite back, that’s what happened that night.
Just too clear up some ends, before you academia elitists flame this post, the word gentrify means to renovate so as to make it conform to middle-class aspirations. That’s your problem; NYC never conforms and never will, epically the LES. And no matter how much money you dump into the LES…its true face, no matter how ugly it is, has to be respected.
To hell with him! He'll much the surrounding.
To hell with him! He'll much the surroundings.
Poor Nicole. Imagine if she was allowed to defend herself with a gun. The proper person would be on a slab at the morgue. Oh well, in the name of "safety" another innocent dies.
I wish to offer the family and friends of this beautiful sweet lady my sincerest condolences and prayers... My thoughts are with you. I didn't know Nicole before her passing but feel as if she taught us so much in her passing. God has a special angel now.. May your hearts fill with joy of all the precious memories you have of her. God Bless you all..... Lets all pray that there is Justice for Nicole and those who loved her so... God Speed Nicole
My heart goes out to Tatiana McDonald, the FOURTEEN-year-old girl, only in middle school, without the opportunties that come with a comfortable middle class existence, a college education, a family home in Minnesota, a career in the arts, a job on the LES and white skin, who now faces a rascist media circus, a lengthy trial and a possible incarceration. My thoughts are with you. I didn't know Tatiana before this incident but I feel as if she has taught us so much. God has a special angel now. May your hearts fill with joy of all the precious memories you have of her. God bless you all . . . Let's all pray that there is Justice for Tatiana and those who love her so . . . God Speed Tatiana.
Mr. Minded, I am one of those academia elitists to which you refer, and I say -- word.
I think lots of little girls and boys from butte montana for example don't get that a lot of LES stuff is still there -- just shoved into smaller apartments, backrooms and basements and way the fuck angrier.
Prostitution, dope, guns -- you can still get it all right next to Max Fish. But this is what these white hipsters think they dig; they like the edge right? O, until they face the real thing of course. Then it's much less Disney.
Personally, I think the city is losing, but it's nowhere near over, and I think a lot more blood will run until the white money's final victory.
I don't think THUGS deserve any more respect than any other criminals. and certainly not murderous thugs. I work with teens who live the 'thug life' and realize the shit they go through- but they need many things more than blind respect for criminal behavior. if you want to make a change in this pattern of violence and poverty *volunteer*, there are hundreds of ways to get involved. the comment made by nicole was taken out of context and used as a "lesson to learn by" in the media-- she was not some midwest innocent unaware of city life. she had lived in cities for at least a decade and knew the dangers they harbored first-hand. Defiance in the face of violence is a choice, and she made that choice just as she made every choice in her life, without fear. No one can judge that split-second decision but her. and she is no longer here to do it.
--friend of victim
There are cities, and there's New York babe. \
la depressionada, it is true there are many victims in this tragedy. However, what does a middle-class existence and white skin have to do with the fact that a 14-year-old is out with armed felons at 3 a.m?
Poverty is no excuse for murder. But, I can see you are more sympathetic towards Al Sharpton and Tawana Brawley than to Whitey from Minn.
Keep up the good race relations!
"la depressionada": I guess that means you don't have a real response. I didn't think so.
I respect Al Sharpton. I support Al Sharpton's politics. I appreciate his struggle, and the people upon whose behalf he works.
I think this girl acted stupidly. I think her b/f acted stupidly and is a pussy. I think they were both drunk and their judgment was impaired, and if you roam the city in that condition at that hour you are vulnerable to attack.
If you are asking whether it is my preference that white girls from Minnesota stay home and drink in "cities" they can handle, like St. Paul, I'd have to say yes.
O btw, lest you think differently, I am white.
like I said, la depressionada, you have no real response. clearly you'd rather stir shit up than actually have an interesting, thoughtful opinion on the subject. nicole lived in NYC, she was born elsewhere, how do the two relate to first-degree murder? oooo, you're white! you go, girl.
How do I relate the two? It is very unlikely anyone who has any streetwise ways, and that includes to some degree all native born New Yorkers, would be as negligent and unaware as this girl and her b/f.
When you are born here you grow up with your parents telling you to be alert; you ride the subway being alert; you know not to fight with muggers; you know NYC teenagers can be volatile; you know anybody can be volatile; you know where to walk and how to walk down a dangerous street; you know what streets to avoid. You know it. You live it.
People come from god knows where. They don't get it. They don't see the people watching them from doorways and shadows looking for opportunity. They don't see the hatred in which they are held by people whose neighborhoods they invade. They don't see how idiotic they look weaving drunk through the street advertising: I'm a target.
They think they're cool New Yorkers; they're not. It takes a long time for an out-of-towner to be a New Yorker. Some never quite make it. Most go back to where ever they came from, get married and live their parents' life.
Also, it's not first degree murder.
I have been far too patient with you. If you are one of those people who came from somewhere and think now you're HERE: I've given you some very valuable advice. Know it.
la depressionada, some of the comments you made
are unbelievable. I was born and raised in NYC. I'm embarassed that we are from the same place, you are ignorant and childish and sound very young. I pray with all my heart nothing terrible like this ever happens to you and yours. Cause you are not immune to bad things happening girl...
I don't believe for a moment that you are white and if you are stop trying to sound black.
A tragic story for sure. However, New Yorkers are just "sheep", who allow the "Thugs" to be King of the Jungle. I read where this punk's gun misfired on the first shot. In most other cities in the U.S., this creep and some/all of his friends would have had a good chance of ending up on a slab somewhere, courtesy of the "victim's" sidearm. That tends to happen in parts of the country where the people still have the basic right to defend themselves. Instead of "respecting" the LES thugs, as a previous poster recommended, respect yourselves and take back your city! Acquire some courage up there, and elect someone to help take those rights back for you!
RedStater is so right....had she been sporting a side arm, it would had to be a side arm, no time to dig in a bag, she could have shot it out with him right there. It would have to be belt holster I think because a shoulder holster would clash with a fashoinable blouse. I picture a low slung western style in a nice black leather, perhaps by Givenchy, with a silver plated 45...more punch. This idea would also help school violence, now we have Columbine and the occasional stabbing or shooting...and as RedStater (is Red OK for short) would say, you can't take all the guns away casuse then only criminals will have guns, so we give all the students guns. I know in Okla we follow this theory and ir does keep our population down. The other problem we have solved with this theory is drunk driving...in the past you'd be droving down the road in your lane and some drunk would be weaving all over the place...now we make everyone drink before they drive and everyone is weaving along in basically the same fashion...yes this is the answer to many problems, keep everyone drunk and armed! Way to go Red.