opps, I hit post before I intended. Additionally, I've participated in protests here in Chicago when the iraq war began (remember we shut down Lake Shore Drive) so don't misunderstand my point, protest for a cause is healthy, but know what the hell you're protesting before you show up.

"if i were in the "heartland" and i saw ordinary citizens being arrested for acting in accordance with their lawfully protected freedoms, i would be moved to their cause."

First of all, I have to say, I loathe the word Heartland... WTF is that supposed to mean. Second of all, most people, including those supposed 'heartlanders' acknowledge the right of freedom of speech and protest, if you actually look at the history of that region, you'd see it. What is viewed with disgust are those annoying brick throwing kids who when actually cornered about why they are out there can barely manage to string together a coherent thought stating their social and/or political views leading the rest of us to dismiss them as that stupid kid who just likes to set stuff on fire.

SD> My view of reality is inspired by David Lynch (and Sartre lately) so I'm not sure how healthy it is... ;-)

Well Max, As some one who's been Told "F___ You, You Hate America!" (*I* Hate America for Questioning the Gov't?? It was Bizzare...) I Have heard that by protesting, Protesters are "Assisitng" Terrorists. Actually it was on FOX Cable (What A Shock!) not in that Rag called the Ny Post...

What A Novel Idea! The Excercising of the 1st Ammendment Aiding Terrorists! Wait. This is the Administration that had John Ashcroft Cover a statue of Justice with a Blanket...

It is humor- unless you agree with the Post letters from readers

I think the single most interesting thing about the protests is that mingled among the so-called anarchists and radical liberals, are policemen and firemen who are picketing for better wages and benefits. I mean what happens when NYPD / FDNY protesters and NYPD / FDNY in uniform collide? Is it like reaching across into a parallel universe and thus breaking the space time continuum? Or are we talking some kind of biblical smackdown of Cain & Abel proportions, where one brother is pitted against another?

Tien, Thanks for the Input. I Imagine my Cousin has the same feelings but won't know till Next week. Are Cops allowed to have Blogs, I wonder?

Kevin, Well, IMO, you have a healthy View of Reality!

;)

On another Note: Just Saw the Daily Show with Jon Stewart. Who Knew Ted Koppel could be so Funny?!?!

SD> I agree with your earlier post; I question EVERYTHING as well - thought I was the only one!

i was in union sq last night - laughing the entire time. i wasnt there protesting, but i most definitely do not support gwb. that being said, i went to see what ppl had to say.

a lot of what i saw was fine - the signs, the dancing, the music, (some) intellectual conversation...i was disappointed to see some things get broken up, ie the music/dance circle, but i really do believe that the police step in to break up anything thats getting to big - say what you want, i do believe that happens for the security/safety of the people there.

what i was more disappointed in was the constant antagonizing of the police. given what i said above, it is their job to keep us safe. booing and spitting and what have you is disrespectful and just plain stupid. liberal, conservative, independent, we all live safer lives b/c of the police - youre ignorant if you think otherwise - they are doing their job, let them do it.

speaking of police - the "police state" guy (always in union sq) is really something. i was waiting for his jugular to rupture as he was comparing the police to the nazis and slave traders for "just doing their jobs". puh-lease. i was glad to see the marching band show up and steal his show...

but then, at 7pm, everyone marched onto the road toward uptown, disrupting traffic, putting ppl in danger, etc...dumb. why? everyone was having a good time in the sq, playing their music and dancing to big-band beyonce ("uh-oh-george bush has got to go"). what does marching up pk ave sth prove? when everyone was corralled into 16th st, they were pissed off....and then arrested for parading without a permit - which they were doing.

yes, 'innocent' ppl were corralled and arrested and that sucks. *many* of those innocent ppl paraded from the park up union sq east with the protest and (like it or not) were parading w/o a permit.

demonstrations can be held without disrupting order and i feel they are much more effective when they are. when they get out of hand, ppl get dismissed as lunatics and their message is lost in the disorder.

my favorite signs? the "bushtatorship" sign - that guy was hilarious. and the "im a coward" rumsfeld/coawrdly lion sign - good stuff.

S.D. - a couple of cops i spoke to don't really care much about the convention. they are stationed around times square and they are loving the OT. they said that the 14 hour shifts suck, but working on their normal days off for 14 hours at 1.5 times pay is good.

Peaceful protesting is fine, but the people spitting on or trying to assault delegates are assholes; as a New Yorker for 47 years, I'm ashamed of them.

You'll get George a sympathy vote, which will defeat your purposes.

www.forgotten-ny.com

badger, kevin, et al...protesting is a consitutionally protected right. if i were in the "heartland" and i saw ordinary citizens being arrested for acting in accordance with their lawfully protected freedoms, i would be moved to their cause. furthermore, when the rest of the world sees 500,000 people marching for peace (not ant-war as the media paints them) it sends the message that we are not ignorant of the damage our gov't does on a global scale. furthermore, people form their opinions based on what comes in front of their eyes...if you want to see what activism is all about, stop standing on the sidelines pontificating!

"If you protest, the Terrorists have won."?

Man, I really hope thats "Humor"...

yes, that would help. and you're onto something regarding the door-to-door thing. republicans launched a massive voting campaign in the churches before the last election... showing the flock exactly how to register, how to vote, and why they must vote for bush. it was very effective. not quite enough to actually get bush elected, but close enough to call it a win. to your point, i don't think the democrats are doing anything nearly as focused as that.

If you protest, the Terrorists have won.

are there no disenchanted youth in the heartland? i remember a few angst-ridden young people there... youth are people too and they have just as much right to their opinions so please don't discount their efforts as 'purposeless'. it would be nice if there was a more cohesive agenda here, but grassroots never have the level of organization and PR that the republican party has. it's 'the people', not a machine. that may, in fact, be it's biggest asset in the heartland.

you won't be able to draw any solid conclusions from any polls. there will probably be a jump in republican support, but is that because of reaction against protests or in support of schwarzneggers nationalist speech? could the spike have been bigger had the protests not occured? you'll never know... it's just not measuarable.

Protests in big cities do zip. It's really up to the lefties in less populated areas to get off their asses and do something to promote their causes. A peaceful march of 300 people in Wisconsin would do far more than the thousands in NY, if only because NY and SF and Chicago and Los Angeles (not Orange County) etc. are foregone conclusions, they will vote Democrat, thank God.

Or how about lefties in those big cities migarting to to smaller communities thoughout the country, go to where the "problem" is, a la northeasterners going to Birmingham to support the civil rights movement.

I'm not saying that I, who live s in a backassward place like Sacramento, am doing those things. I'm not, for many reasons, mostly lack of time. I do voice my opinions here at work where I am assualted with Christian rock coming from nearby cubicles.

Anyway, I'm with badger abe, for the most part. These protests are great for meeting chicks and scoring weed and releasing some stress. It's a nice communal feeling, I know, I've protested in SF against the first Gulf War and the most recent. But really, yuo wont change any minds unless you do it peacefully and with FOCUS (that should be emphasized, the scattershot messages I've seen in pictures of these protests is sickening and the very reason the left never gets anything done) in outllying areas.

and I'm out...

you know what was missing in Sunday's protest? a gigantic "country music fans against Bush" banner. also, "SUV owners against Bush". and "soccer moms against Bush", and "Nascar fans against Bush". if I were a *real* hardcore protester, I would throw out my Birkenstocks, buy me a cowboy hat, and start square dancing on 34th Street.

Sure they would as they'd just be Quoting GOP people. Especially FOX (aka GOP media).

Well, Who knows? These protestors may inspire people in WI to vote against GW. How about the "Pink Slip Protest" I mention above? I bet Lots of people in Every state is thinking "That Could be ME next!".

Your apparently equating ALL protestors in the same Vein. Many in WI and the rest of the US will note the differnce between Grandmothers for peace as opposed to these "Anarchist Wanna be's" who insist on raining on everyone's parade.

As for Strategy, Ever hear of the Butterfly Effect? My point is you never know what's going to happen untill you get to the Home stretch. I think, As i think I've indicated, that it much better for them to PEACFULLY protest as opposed to being quiet.

in response to the last post by BadgerAbe, we are limited in many ways in terms of doing things the way "the GOP is doing it." I mean short of trying to change people (which you can't anyway--especially people who live in a totally different environment), the only thing you can do is show them how many other people disagree. maybe it's about numbers and intensity? that is, have the most number of people rallying as much as they can, to show the rest of the country that there is enough people who believe there is something wrong with the administration. this still boils down to media exposure, as S.D. stated. however, this is only effective if it is a repeated and consistent effort. if the effort is inconsistent, you lose momentum and the people you are trying to reach will retreat back into their holes again (ideologically, mentally). but then again, this is just my own justification...