Protesters Come Out In Force

opps, I hit post before I intended. Additionally, I've participated in protests here in Chicago when the iraq war began (remember we shut down Lake Shore Drive) so don't misunderstand my point, protest for a cause is healthy, but know what the hell you're protesting before you show up.

"if i were in the "heartland" and i saw ordinary citizens being arrested for acting in accordance with their lawfully protected freedoms, i would be moved to their cause."

First of all, I have to say, I loathe the word Heartland... WTF is that supposed to mean. Second of all, most people, including those supposed 'heartlanders' acknowledge the right of freedom of speech and protest, if you actually look at the history of that region, you'd see it. What is viewed with disgust are those annoying brick throwing kids who when actually cornered about why they are out there can barely manage to string together a coherent thought stating their social and/or political views leading the rest of us to dismiss them as that stupid kid who just likes to set stuff on fire.

SD> My view of reality is inspired by David Lynch (and Sartre lately) so I'm not sure how healthy it is... ;-)

Well Max, As some one who's been Told "F___ You, You Hate America!" (*I* Hate America for Questioning the Gov't?? It was Bizzare...) I Have heard that by protesting, Protesters are "Assisitng" Terrorists. Actually it was on FOX Cable (What A Shock!) not in that Rag called the Ny Post...

What A Novel Idea! The Excercising of the 1st Ammendment Aiding Terrorists! Wait. This is the Administration that had John Ashcroft Cover a statue of Justice with a Blanket...

It is humor- unless you agree with the Post letters from readers

I think the single most interesting thing about the protests is that mingled among the so-called anarchists and radical liberals, are policemen and firemen who are picketing for better wages and benefits. I mean what happens when NYPD / FDNY protesters and NYPD / FDNY in uniform collide? Is it like reaching across into a parallel universe and thus breaking the space time continuum? Or are we talking some kind of biblical smackdown of Cain & Abel proportions, where one brother is pitted against another?

Tien, Thanks for the Input. I Imagine my Cousin has the same feelings but won't know till Next week. Are Cops allowed to have Blogs, I wonder?

Kevin, Well, IMO, you have a healthy View of Reality!

;)

On another Note: Just Saw the Daily Show with Jon Stewart. Who Knew Ted Koppel could be so Funny?!?!

SD> I agree with your earlier post; I question EVERYTHING as well - thought I was the only one!

i was in union sq last night - laughing the entire time. i wasnt there protesting, but i most definitely do not support gwb. that being said, i went to see what ppl had to say.

a lot of what i saw was fine - the signs, the dancing, the music, (some) intellectual conversation...i was disappointed to see some things get broken up, ie the music/dance circle, but i really do believe that the police step in to break up anything thats getting to big - say what you want, i do believe that happens for the security/safety of the people there.

what i was more disappointed in was the constant antagonizing of the police. given what i said above, it is their job to keep us safe. booing and spitting and what have you is disrespectful and just plain stupid. liberal, conservative, independent, we all live safer lives b/c of the police - youre ignorant if you think otherwise - they are doing their job, let them do it.

speaking of police - the "police state" guy (always in union sq) is really something. i was waiting for his jugular to rupture as he was comparing the police to the nazis and slave traders for "just doing their jobs". puh-lease. i was glad to see the marching band show up and steal his show...

but then, at 7pm, everyone marched onto the road toward uptown, disrupting traffic, putting ppl in danger, etc...dumb. why? everyone was having a good time in the sq, playing their music and dancing to big-band beyonce ("uh-oh-george bush has got to go"). what does marching up pk ave sth prove? when everyone was corralled into 16th st, they were pissed off....and then arrested for parading without a permit - which they were doing.

yes, 'innocent' ppl were corralled and arrested and that sucks. *many* of those innocent ppl paraded from the park up union sq east with the protest and (like it or not) were parading w/o a permit.

demonstrations can be held without disrupting order and i feel they are much more effective when they are. when they get out of hand, ppl get dismissed as lunatics and their message is lost in the disorder.

my favorite signs? the "bushtatorship" sign - that guy was hilarious. and the "im a coward" rumsfeld/coawrdly lion sign - good stuff.

S.D. - a couple of cops i spoke to don't really care much about the convention. they are stationed around times square and they are loving the OT. they said that the 14 hour shifts suck, but working on their normal days off for 14 hours at 1.5 times pay is good.

Peaceful protesting is fine, but the people spitting on or trying to assault delegates are assholes; as a New Yorker for 47 years, I'm ashamed of them.

You'll get George a sympathy vote, which will defeat your purposes.

www.forgotten-ny.com

badger, kevin, et al...protesting is a consitutionally protected right. if i were in the "heartland" and i saw ordinary citizens being arrested for acting in accordance with their lawfully protected freedoms, i would be moved to their cause. furthermore, when the rest of the world sees 500,000 people marching for peace (not ant-war as the media paints them) it sends the message that we are not ignorant of the damage our gov't does on a global scale. furthermore, people form their opinions based on what comes in front of their eyes...if you want to see what activism is all about, stop standing on the sidelines pontificating!

"If you protest, the Terrorists have won."?

Man, I really hope thats "Humor"...

yes, that would help. and you're onto something regarding the door-to-door thing. republicans launched a massive voting campaign in the churches before the last election... showing the flock exactly how to register, how to vote, and why they must vote for bush. it was very effective. not quite enough to actually get bush elected, but close enough to call it a win. to your point, i don't think the democrats are doing anything nearly as focused as that.

If you protest, the Terrorists have won.

are there no disenchanted youth in the heartland? i remember a few angst-ridden young people there... youth are people too and they have just as much right to their opinions so please don't discount their efforts as 'purposeless'. it would be nice if there was a more cohesive agenda here, but grassroots never have the level of organization and PR that the republican party has. it's 'the people', not a machine. that may, in fact, be it's biggest asset in the heartland.

you won't be able to draw any solid conclusions from any polls. there will probably be a jump in republican support, but is that because of reaction against protests or in support of schwarzneggers nationalist speech? could the spike have been bigger had the protests not occured? you'll never know... it's just not measuarable.

Protests in big cities do zip. It's really up to the lefties in less populated areas to get off their asses and do something to promote their causes. A peaceful march of 300 people in Wisconsin would do far more than the thousands in NY, if only because NY and SF and Chicago and Los Angeles (not Orange County) etc. are foregone conclusions, they will vote Democrat, thank God.

Or how about lefties in those big cities migarting to to smaller communities thoughout the country, go to where the "problem" is, a la northeasterners going to Birmingham to support the civil rights movement.

I'm not saying that I, who live s in a backassward place like Sacramento, am doing those things. I'm not, for many reasons, mostly lack of time. I do voice my opinions here at work where I am assualted with Christian rock coming from nearby cubicles.

Anyway, I'm with badger abe, for the most part. These protests are great for meeting chicks and scoring weed and releasing some stress. It's a nice communal feeling, I know, I've protested in SF against the first Gulf War and the most recent. But really, yuo wont change any minds unless you do it peacefully and with FOCUS (that should be emphasized, the scattershot messages I've seen in pictures of these protests is sickening and the very reason the left never gets anything done) in outllying areas.

and I'm out...

you know what was missing in Sunday's protest? a gigantic "country music fans against Bush" banner. also, "SUV owners against Bush". and "soccer moms against Bush", and "Nascar fans against Bush". if I were a *real* hardcore protester, I would throw out my Birkenstocks, buy me a cowboy hat, and start square dancing on 34th Street.

Sure they would as they'd just be Quoting GOP people. Especially FOX (aka GOP media).

Well, Who knows? These protestors may inspire people in WI to vote against GW. How about the "Pink Slip Protest" I mention above? I bet Lots of people in Every state is thinking "That Could be ME next!".

Your apparently equating ALL protestors in the same Vein. Many in WI and the rest of the US will note the differnce between Grandmothers for peace as opposed to these "Anarchist Wanna be's" who insist on raining on everyone's parade.

As for Strategy, Ever hear of the Butterfly Effect? My point is you never know what's going to happen untill you get to the Home stretch. I think, As i think I've indicated, that it much better for them to PEACFULLY protest as opposed to being quiet.

in response to the last post by BadgerAbe, we are limited in many ways in terms of doing things the way "the GOP is doing it." I mean short of trying to change people (which you can't anyway--especially people who live in a totally different environment), the only thing you can do is show them how many other people disagree. maybe it's about numbers and intensity? that is, have the most number of people rallying as much as they can, to show the rest of the country that there is enough people who believe there is something wrong with the administration. this still boils down to media exposure, as S.D. stated. however, this is only effective if it is a repeated and consistent effort. if the effort is inconsistent, you lose momentum and the people you are trying to reach will retreat back into their holes again (ideologically, mentally). but then again, this is just my own justification...

we already talked about this yesterday badger... our experiences with midwest politics were quite different. to answer your question again i'll give you a couple of things to consider,

1) these protests make visible a counter-movement that opens heartland eyes. it's a catalyst for the disenchanted to start thinking about this election in ways beyond the mainstream media.

2) nobody buys into the argumentative attack ads (the ones we don't even see in ny but run so relentlessly that midwesterners can recite them verbatim). a message from people on the street is something else that lots of folks can relate to.

3) there are lots of unions in those states and they hold solidarity marches. they picket factories quite often, placards and all. there are plenty of farm families that have lost their livelyhood because of corporitized agriculture. these people can relate.

no doubt it will alienate some people... i'm sure you're partially correct. but at the same time it motivates other people to vote and gives the election a human/citizen/we-the-people face that many others actually embrace.

bottom line is that we have no way of knowing if peaceful protesting's net result reflects positively or negatively on either candidate. these are good things to think about, but it's simply not that cut-and-dry.

yeah, many are into it for self-satisfaction, but it's absurd to claim that is the only motivation and that there's no viability to protesting a misguided government.

it's clear that violence will not win votes for anyone.

I totally disagree, Todd W. Badger Abe is *not* right on the money. I used to think protesting was ridiculous as it does not directly lead to change. but what it does do very well is create an awareness that there are people who feel strongly enough about certain issues that they are willing to get off their sofas and away from their TV screens to let the world know what they think. this can help convince people to rethink things. and *that* can lead to change. I say, speak your mind when you can, where you can, and as much as you can. unfortunately where it matters most, people will not ASK for your opinion; you need to GIVE it to them. Sunday was not enough. (that said, violence is no solution)

Thje Tangible Goal is simply: Media Exposure.

Badger_abe, At the risk of another long Post, Something I've Never been Guilty of (Yeah, Right! ;) ), What do you suppose would be the GOP SPIN if all the Protests Stop? See my "Carte Blanche approval" comment above for what I think.

Interesting Pink Slip Protest

As Per the Daily News:

Protesters in 'unemployment line' from Wall St. to MSG

I hope Gothamist got Pictures.

Ah. I was Just curious. I'm in my Mid 30's myself.

Hmmm, are the masses complete idiots? Well, I'm a firm beliver in the Individual, but I must admit that, IMO, the General Public as a body can be a little too trusting of Gov't and the Media. I think People hear things by repitition and Often simply assume it's true. (As Seen On TV! Bah.) I think it's healthier to question Everything.



A history Professor once told me to Strive to be like the Common Man (He was defending Communism to wake the class up. As there were a Lot of Young Republicans In the class, It Worked too). Well, In My limited Experience, The Common Man is often intollerent, given the chance Acts like a Moron, Fears what he doesn't understand, and want's "it" (replace "it" with anything) but doesn't want to pay for "it". While, in my life, that has described *ME*, I think we should all strive to be better.

Regarding the Masses, I beleive in Democracy (Which BTW We don't live in, we live in a Republic) I Always Remember:

"Sure, underground protests are effective and disruptive..."

Effective in what way and for what end? Getting yourself on TV, sure, but affecting any real change? Mostly they're just smug, self-righteous group hugs, changing no one's minds or votes.

badger abe is right on the money.

SD> I'm over 30 and would love to have a detailed private discussion with you but unfortunately my job and life beckon.

By the way, is it right to assume that the masses are complete idiots and would seek to ONLY focus on the violent protests?

Badger_abe, a) Yes, we do hear you b) I must respectfully disagree with your assement.

"I am telling all NY protesters now, stop. Please."

Do you mean all Protestors or the Violent onse? (I hope you mean the Violent ones.) As you may have heard, Many people are being arrested 'cause they were on the side walk at the WRONG TIME. If they simply Stop ALL the Protests (Which don't seem to be covered in detail by "Mainstream" media anyway) the GOP will use it as Carte Blanche approval of Their Agenda.

I'd rather they keep on marching non violently.

All this advice for protestors and what protestors should be doing is ignoring the fact that ANYONE who was standing around in the wrong place at the wrong time last night was corraled and arrested. The police were not just going after people who were being violent or blocking intersections -- they were using barricades and netting, conveniently placed at every intersection throughout much of Manhattan -- to cordon off little chunks of the city so they could do "crowd control," in this case meaning herding everyone caught in the sweep into vans, trucking them off to holding areas, not letting lawyers see any of them, etc. All sorts of people got caught in this foolish godawful mess.

16th Street was insane last night. They arrested nearly everyone netted into the area, including those who had been trying to get out of the chaos...for parading without a permit. Even the cops were not in agreement about the arrests. There was one walking around giving us tips on how to get out of being arrested.

Kevin, Re: Protestors using Violence, It's An Old discussion so I won't rehash, But I'm Curious: How old are you and Are you out protesting? I'm really just curious and NOT baiting you. Email me if you want to make it a private conversation.

Back on topic:

I have relatives who are Police officers. I haven't spoke with them this week (Oddly they are putting in MASSIVE Overtime. Gee, whatever for? ;) ), but I wonder what the actual Cops on the street have to say? The Blogs I've seen have been fairly nuetral to outright Pro Protestors (Nothing wrong with that, they aren't The Press) and I'm curious as to how Avg Joe Streetcop view of this week.

Anyone know any Cop willing to comment?? Just a thought.

Yeah Jerry, tell that to the people who were arrested falsely -- bystanders, media, legal observers, people legally using the "wrong" type of transportation (bicycles), and protesters who were demonstrating legally and complying with cops' directions, then suddenly apprehended for no reason.

Oh sure, an RNC every week would be wonderful -- a depressed economy, a massive security budget, police repression and shameless exploitation of 9/11 for crude political purposes. Woo bring it on!

Maybe you should read something other than corporate media. Perhaps you'd get a clue.

I think the police presence is great. I wish we could have the RNC every week. Orderly streets, no panhandlers--this is awesome. It doesn't bother me that the cops have to crack down on some protesters because of a few professional instigators.

I think the police presence is great. I wish we could have the RNC every week. Orderly streets, no panhandlers--this is awesome. It doesn't bother me that the cops have to crack down on some protesters because of a few professional instigators.

Sweet; the protests kicked it up a noch! Dedication and inspiration...

I think the police presence is great. I wish we could have the RNC every week. Orderly streets, no panhandlers--this is awesome. It doesn't bother me that the cops have to crack down on some protesters because of a few professional instigators.

And if you dislike FOx, you may enjoy seeing an entire series of photos of what has happened to the Fox News Billboards in the NY subways: http://graphitefurnace.blogs.com/main/2004/08/fox_news_billbo.html

BTW, there is a big anti-corporate media protest Wednesday (today) at 7PM. Meet in midtown (details at http://www.fair.org/events.html). This is a mature, peaceful event, sponsored by FAIR, not a bandana-wearing stupid kids event like the nonsense near Union Square last night.