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Protesters unleashed a campaign of demonstrations all over Manhattan yesterday. Aimed at being a day of non-violent, civil disobedience, things actually got much hairier as police tried to clamp down and ended up arresting 900 protesters. Some say the police were being overzealous, even reneging on agreements with protest groups about their protests. The NY Times reported NYCLU executive director Donna Lieberman's concerns:
"It's an example of the police suckering the protesters...It was a bait-and-switch tactic, where they approved a demonstration and the protesters kept up their end of the bargain. They undermined people's confidence in the police, and that's a serious problem as we go forward.Naturally, the Post says demonstrations grew demonic, noting that 16 cops were injured and an intense confrontation with protesters spitting on delegates outside MSG. Gothamist loves the idea of these protests, but we get worried when we hear they get violent - both on the protesters' and police's sides - because that just means less flexibility and working with the police in organizing protests later. Sure, underground protests are effective and disruptive, but there are legitimate concerns about backlash from the heartland hearing soundbites about "demonstrators in NY hurting the delegates." Be good, everyone.
More photographs in our third roundup of photoblogs on the scene.
Photo above by Rion Nakaya for rion.nu
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And if you dislike FOx, you may enjoy seeing an entire series of photos of what has happened to the Fox News Billboards in the NY subways: http://graphitefurnace.blogs.com/main/2004/08/fox_news_billbo.html
BTW, there is a big anti-corporate media protest Wednesday (today) at 7PM. Meet in midtown (details at http://www.fair.org/events.html). This is a mature, peaceful event, sponsored by FAIR, not a bandana-wearing stupid kids event like the nonsense near Union Square last night.
I think the police presence is great. I wish we could have the RNC every week. Orderly streets, no panhandlers--this is awesome. It doesn't bother me that the cops have to crack down on some protesters because of a few professional instigators.
Sweet; the protests kicked it up a noch! Dedication and inspiration...
I think the police presence is great. I wish we could have the RNC every week. Orderly streets, no panhandlers--this is awesome. It doesn't bother me that the cops have to crack down on some protesters because of a few professional instigators.
I think the police presence is great. I wish we could have the RNC every week. Orderly streets, no panhandlers--this is awesome. It doesn't bother me that the cops have to crack down on some protesters because of a few professional instigators.
“there are legitimate concerns about backlash from the heartland hearing soundbites about "demonstrators in NY hurting the delegates." Yes, Jen. But they should be more than concerns, they should be giant alarm bells.
I’m back here today with my same message. 2% lead in WI for Bush. 4% undecided (moderates). Look at the map of Midwest states: Iowa, Michigan, WI, Minnesota, Ohio; all locked close to 50/50. All with an undecided electorate that is almost certainly moderate. 64 total electoral votes.
http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-polldatapage.htmlstory#Wisconsin
This undecided MODERATE electorate will decide this election.
I’m going to say this again even though I know nobody A) believes me or B) seems to actually care moiré about winning than about being heard. Apparently protesters in NY are more interested in the self satisfaction of having voiced their opinions, consequences be damned.
I am telling all NY protesters now, stop. Please. More arrests will lead to more TV news about arrests in these states which will lead to lost votes for Kerry. Again, I have been saying it to anyone who will listen: I know it is hard to wrap your brain around, but continued protests, of almost any kind, will hurt Kerry in the states that matter. Following Sunday’s great show nothing more good can come from protests. They only risk an incident. All it would take is for one policeman to accidentally die or be seriously injured in a graphic way and all those states will be harder to win than ever.
Again: Yes, the protests reach NYers, but you know what, NYers DON’T MATTER anymore. Unless you want to move to WI before Nov. and register there.
If protests continue in this vein Bush WILL win…yes, he will… And when that happens in Nov., I just want everyone who went out there and got on the news screaming at whatever or whoever or clashed with police and felt accomplished to know that they will be to blame.
Yeah Jerry, tell that to the people who were arrested falsely -- bystanders, media, legal observers, people legally using the "wrong" type of transportation (bicycles), and protesters who were demonstrating legally and complying with cops' directions, then suddenly apprehended for no reason.
Oh sure, an RNC every week would be wonderful -- a depressed economy, a massive security budget, police repression and shameless exploitation of 9/11 for crude political purposes. Woo bring it on!
Maybe you should read something other than corporate media. Perhaps you'd get a clue.
Kevin, Re: Protestors using Violence, It's An Old discussion so I won't rehash, But I'm Curious: How old are you and Are you out protesting? I'm really just curious and NOT baiting you. Email me if you want to make it a private conversation.
Back on topic:
I have relatives who are Police officers. I haven't spoke with them this week (Oddly they are putting in MASSIVE Overtime. Gee, whatever for? ;) ), but I wonder what the actual Cops on the street have to say? The Blogs I've seen have been fairly nuetral to outright Pro Protestors (Nothing wrong with that, they aren't The Press) and I'm curious as to how Avg Joe Streetcop view of this week.
Anyone know any Cop willing to comment?? Just a thought.
16th Street was insane last night. They arrested nearly everyone netted into the area, including those who had been trying to get out of the chaos...for parading without a permit. Even the cops were not in agreement about the arrests. There was one walking around giving us tips on how to get out of being arrested.
All this advice for protestors and what protestors should be doing is ignoring the fact that ANYONE who was standing around in the wrong place at the wrong time last night was corraled and arrested. The police were not just going after people who were being violent or blocking intersections -- they were using barricades and netting, conveniently placed at every intersection throughout much of Manhattan -- to cordon off little chunks of the city so they could do "crowd control," in this case meaning herding everyone caught in the sweep into vans, trucking them off to holding areas, not letting lawyers see any of them, etc. All sorts of people got caught in this foolish godawful mess.
Badger_abe, a) Yes, we do hear you b) I must respectfully disagree with your assement.
"I am telling all NY protesters now, stop. Please."
Do you mean all Protestors or the Violent onse? (I hope you mean the Violent ones.) As you may have heard, Many people are being arrested 'cause they were on the side walk at the WRONG TIME. If they simply Stop ALL the Protests (Which don't seem to be covered in detail by "Mainstream" media anyway) the GOP will use it as Carte Blanche approval of Their Agenda.
I'd rather they keep on marching non violently.
SD> I'm over 30 and would love to have a detailed private discussion with you but unfortunately my job and life beckon.
By the way, is it right to assume that the masses are complete idiots and would seek to ONLY focus on the violent protests?
"Sure, underground protests are effective and disruptive..."
Effective in what way and for what end? Getting yourself on TV, sure, but affecting any real change? Mostly they're just smug, self-righteous group hugs, changing no one's minds or votes.
badger abe is right on the money.
Ah. I was Just curious. I'm in my Mid 30's myself.
Hmmm, are the masses complete idiots? Well, I'm a firm beliver in the Individual, but I must admit that, IMO, the General Public as a body can be a little too trusting of Gov't and the Media. I think People hear things by repitition and Often simply assume it's true. (As Seen On TV! Bah.) I think it's healthier to question Everything.
A history Professor once told me to Strive to be like the Common Man (He was defending Communism to wake the class up. As there were a Lot of Young Republicans In the class, It Worked too). Well, In My limited Experience, The Common Man is often intollerent, given the chance Acts like a Moron, Fears what he doesn't understand, and want's "it" (replace "it" with anything) but doesn't want to pay for "it". While, in my life, that has described *ME*, I think we should all strive to be better.
Regarding the Masses, I beleive in Democracy (Which BTW We don't live in, we live in a Republic) I Always Remember:
badger abe -- I come to gothimist by way of chicagoist (you know that little town in the middle of the Midwest, I’m sure you’ve heard of it … actually we are sort of the redheaded stepchild out here, politically at least) and you have some good points. However, lets face it, people have short term memories and short attention spans, and by November, unless things really get out of control, like they did here in 1968, the convention will mean nothing to undecided voters up in Wisconsin.
Interesting Pink Slip Protest
As Per the Daily News:
Protesters in 'unemployment line' from Wall St. to MSG
I hope Gothamist got Pictures.
The “why” of getting arrested (or even the “why” of marching in a protest) doesn’t matter. That’s the point I think that’s being largely missed. While we here in NY know that people are being arrested for the wrong reasons, these facts rarely make it outside of our area.
People where I am from in WI still watch the local network news at night. That’s 1/2 hour for everything and 5 minutes is weather 10 minutes is commercials and 10 minutes is sports. I’m not kidding. They will get a 45 second story on the protests and it will include only the most graphic stuff i.e. crap burning in the street. Gore won WI in 2000 by less than 6000 votes. As the Times reported, that’s two tenths of a percent of the electorate. If two votes in each rural district change this time around, Bush will carry WI. That’s just 2 votes in each district.
The protests in my mind are a giant risk for little reward outside of self-gratification and a (largely provincial) sense of accomplishment for lefties. Again, the risk is enormous if something goes seriously wrong. If one cop gets seriously injured by a protestor the media will report it in WI like it was the fault of the protestors in general. And rhetoric, like the 9/11 stuff, plays there. Rural WIites don’t like cops getting killed. No matter the reason. The fringe groups and the non-violent organized groups are not viewed as any different in WI outside of Milwaukee and Madison. So just by being on the street, any movement is risking being associated with every other movement out there and risking having to take responsibility for anything they do! Again, let me reiterate to address vit’s very good point: It just takes one cop to get seriously hurt and everything will count against the protests. Hell, it could even be just somebody unassociated with the protests who happens to have it in for a cop because he’s sleeping with his wife or something. It WON’T MATTER because if it’s done while the protests are going on the only thing that will be reported is the cop’s injury and that it happened at the protests.
Look at the moped injury. Nobody I’ve talked to knows what happened for sure. But they know a cop is in the hospital because of something that happened at a protest. In WI that will mean the protesters are guilty.
You know why Bush has a minor lead in rural WI right now (and places like it where it will all matter)? It’s because while the left gets together in the cities and hangs with like minded people trying to change minds from afar with confrontation and chanting, the right is hyper-organized and getting people out to go door to door where the voters LIVE. They are engaging WI voters one on one, which is the language they understand. Small town style. Maybe it’s just that we here in NY just do not get that people elsewhere respond differently. But we are going to have to come to terms with the fact that, although much of this city loves to laugh at the Midwest and its backwardness, we MUST start doing things the way they want if we want to win. The GOP is doing it. We aren’t.
Of course everyone is entitled to his or her opinion. But please just answer this one question:
What is the tangible goal of these protests? (Not peace or Bush out of the White House or Opening People’s eyes, etc.) I am asking, in terms of tangible Bush-gone results, what do these protests intend to achieve outside of NY?
Thje Tangible Goal is simply: Media Exposure.
Badger_abe, At the risk of another long Post, Something I've Never been Guilty of (Yeah, Right! ;) ), What do you suppose would be the GOP SPIN if all the Protests Stop? See my "Carte Blanche approval" comment above for what I think.
I totally disagree, Todd W. Badger Abe is *not* right on the money. I used to think protesting was ridiculous as it does not directly lead to change. but what it does do very well is create an awareness that there are people who feel strongly enough about certain issues that they are willing to get off their sofas and away from their TV screens to let the world know what they think. this can help convince people to rethink things. and *that* can lead to change. I say, speak your mind when you can, where you can, and as much as you can. unfortunately where it matters most, people will not ASK for your opinion; you need to GIVE it to them. Sunday was not enough. (that said, violence is no solution)
I cannot be certain what GOP spin would be. However, it would be filtered through the media and, even right leaning media, wouldn’t allow them to say, “Well, they stopped because they all agree with us now.”
Sorry, but Media Exposure to what end? I mean tangible as in “An increase in voter awareness of the left’s policies in WI” or “An increase in Dem voter registration in Iowa.” What I’m saying is that there appears to be no hard and fast goal of all this behavior; no goal in terms of tangible results that will un seat Bush. To me it seems as if it is mostly people voicing their anger without a whole lot of strategy.
If the goal is just raw media exposure then that already been done: Arrests and burning shit in the streets.
we already talked about this yesterday badger... our experiences with midwest politics were quite different. to answer your question again i'll give you a couple of things to consider,
1) these protests make visible a counter-movement that opens heartland eyes. it's a catalyst for the disenchanted to start thinking about this election in ways beyond the mainstream media.
2) nobody buys into the argumentative attack ads (the ones we don't even see in ny but run so relentlessly that midwesterners can recite them verbatim). a message from people on the street is something else that lots of folks can relate to.
3) there are lots of unions in those states and they hold solidarity marches. they picket factories quite often, placards and all. there are plenty of farm families that have lost their livelyhood because of corporitized agriculture. these people can relate.
no doubt it will alienate some people... i'm sure you're partially correct. but at the same time it motivates other people to vote and gives the election a human/citizen/we-the-people face that many others actually embrace.
bottom line is that we have no way of knowing if peaceful protesting's net result reflects positively or negatively on either candidate. these are good things to think about, but it's simply not that cut-and-dry.
yeah, many are into it for self-satisfaction, but it's absurd to claim that is the only motivation and that there's no viability to protesting a misguided government.
it's clear that violence will not win votes for anyone.
in response to the last post by BadgerAbe, we are limited in many ways in terms of doing things the way "the GOP is doing it." I mean short of trying to change people (which you can't anyway--especially people who live in a totally different environment), the only thing you can do is show them how many other people disagree. maybe it's about numbers and intensity? that is, have the most number of people rallying as much as they can, to show the rest of the country that there is enough people who believe there is something wrong with the administration. this still boils down to media exposure, as S.D. stated. however, this is only effective if it is a repeated and consistent effort. if the effort is inconsistent, you lose momentum and the people you are trying to reach will retreat back into their holes again (ideologically, mentally). but then again, this is just my own justification...
Sure they would as they'd just be Quoting GOP people. Especially FOX (aka GOP media).
Well, Who knows? These protestors may inspire people in WI to vote against GW. How about the "Pink Slip Protest" I mention above? I bet Lots of people in Every state is thinking "That Could be ME next!".
Your apparently equating ALL protestors in the same Vein. Many in WI and the rest of the US will note the differnce between Grandmothers for peace as opposed to these "Anarchist Wanna be's" who insist on raining on everyone's parade.
As for Strategy, Ever hear of the Butterfly Effect? My point is you never know what's going to happen untill you get to the Home stretch. I think, As i think I've indicated, that it much better for them to PEACFULLY protest as opposed to being quiet.
It’s really the kinda’ purposeless youth disjointedly organized with no clear cut understandable “reason” in terms of gripe or goal that I worry about in terms of image elsewhere like WI. Voters there don’t respond to complaining youth. Grannies, Fire fighters, unions, even, to some degree, pink slip protesters probably have a better chance of making a dent.
Re: Butterfly Effect, Yes, you never know what’s going to happen and I see that as a huge risk rather than potential reward.
Well, I think we can all agree that things are already in motion and there’s no changing anything at this juncture. However, I will be watching the stats as they do polls in WI every week. I am very curious to see next week’s results.
you know what was missing in Sunday's protest? a gigantic "country music fans against Bush" banner. also, "SUV owners against Bush". and "soccer moms against Bush", and "Nascar fans against Bush". if I were a *real* hardcore protester, I would throw out my Birkenstocks, buy me a cowboy hat, and start square dancing on 34th Street.
Protests in big cities do zip. It's really up to the lefties in less populated areas to get off their asses and do something to promote their causes. A peaceful march of 300 people in Wisconsin would do far more than the thousands in NY, if only because NY and SF and Chicago and Los Angeles (not Orange County) etc. are foregone conclusions, they will vote Democrat, thank God.
Or how about lefties in those big cities migarting to to smaller communities thoughout the country, go to where the "problem" is, a la northeasterners going to Birmingham to support the civil rights movement.
I'm not saying that I, who live s in a backassward place like Sacramento, am doing those things. I'm not, for many reasons, mostly lack of time. I do voice my opinions here at work where I am assualted with Christian rock coming from nearby cubicles.
Anyway, I'm with badger abe, for the most part. These protests are great for meeting chicks and scoring weed and releasing some stress. It's a nice communal feeling, I know, I've protested in SF against the first Gulf War and the most recent. But really, yuo wont change any minds unless you do it peacefully and with FOCUS (that should be emphasized, the scattershot messages I've seen in pictures of these protests is sickening and the very reason the left never gets anything done) in outllying areas.
and I'm out...
are there no disenchanted youth in the heartland? i remember a few angst-ridden young people there... youth are people too and they have just as much right to their opinions so please don't discount their efforts as 'purposeless'. it would be nice if there was a more cohesive agenda here, but grassroots never have the level of organization and PR that the republican party has. it's 'the people', not a machine. that may, in fact, be it's biggest asset in the heartland.
you won't be able to draw any solid conclusions from any polls. there will probably be a jump in republican support, but is that because of reaction against protests or in support of schwarzneggers nationalist speech? could the spike have been bigger had the protests not occured? you'll never know... it's just not measuarable.
If you protest, the Terrorists have won.
You’re right in that it’s almost impossible to measure. That is, unless something really bad happens.
Anyway, I was just in Union Sq. and they have all these boots lined up for some War is Costly thing. It’s pretty moving. There are about 100 press photogs standing around just waiting for something to happen.
Now, if you got a serviceman down there in uniform down there to stand—no kneel—amongst those boots and, if he could manage it, cry that would make the front page of every paper in WI and then I think the point would have gotten across.
yes, that would help. and you're onto something regarding the door-to-door thing. republicans launched a massive voting campaign in the churches before the last election... showing the flock exactly how to register, how to vote, and why they must vote for bush. it was very effective. not quite enough to actually get bush elected, but close enough to call it a win. to your point, i don't think the democrats are doing anything nearly as focused as that.
"If you protest, the Terrorists have won."?
Man, I really hope thats "Humor"...
badger, kevin, et al...protesting is a consitutionally protected right. if i were in the "heartland" and i saw ordinary citizens being arrested for acting in accordance with their lawfully protected freedoms, i would be moved to their cause. furthermore, when the rest of the world sees 500,000 people marching for peace (not ant-war as the media paints them) it sends the message that we are not ignorant of the damage our gov't does on a global scale. furthermore, people form their opinions based on what comes in front of their eyes...if you want to see what activism is all about, stop standing on the sidelines pontificating!
Peaceful protesting is fine, but the people spitting on or trying to assault delegates are assholes; as a New Yorker for 47 years, I'm ashamed of them.
You'll get George a sympathy vote, which will defeat your purposes.
www.forgotten-ny.com
S.D. - a couple of cops i spoke to don't really care much about the convention. they are stationed around times square and they are loving the OT. they said that the 14 hour shifts suck, but working on their normal days off for 14 hours at 1.5 times pay is good.
i was in union sq last night - laughing the entire time. i wasnt there protesting, but i most definitely do not support gwb. that being said, i went to see what ppl had to say.
a lot of what i saw was fine - the signs, the dancing, the music, (some) intellectual conversation...i was disappointed to see some things get broken up, ie the music/dance circle, but i really do believe that the police step in to break up anything thats getting to big - say what you want, i do believe that happens for the security/safety of the people there.
what i was more disappointed in was the constant antagonizing of the police. given what i said above, it is their job to keep us safe. booing and spitting and what have you is disrespectful and just plain stupid. liberal, conservative, independent, we all live safer lives b/c of the police - youre ignorant if you think otherwise - they are doing their job, let them do it.
speaking of police - the "police state" guy (always in union sq) is really something. i was waiting for his jugular to rupture as he was comparing the police to the nazis and slave traders for "just doing their jobs". puh-lease. i was glad to see the marching band show up and steal his show...
but then, at 7pm, everyone marched onto the road toward uptown, disrupting traffic, putting ppl in danger, etc...dumb. why? everyone was having a good time in the sq, playing their music and dancing to big-band beyonce ("uh-oh-george bush has got to go"). what does marching up pk ave sth prove? when everyone was corralled into 16th st, they were pissed off....and then arrested for parading without a permit - which they were doing.
yes, 'innocent' ppl were corralled and arrested and that sucks. *many* of those innocent ppl paraded from the park up union sq east with the protest and (like it or not) were parading w/o a permit.
demonstrations can be held without disrupting order and i feel they are much more effective when they are. when they get out of hand, ppl get dismissed as lunatics and their message is lost in the disorder.
my favorite signs? the "bushtatorship" sign - that guy was hilarious. and the "im a coward" rumsfeld/coawrdly lion sign - good stuff.
SD> I agree with your earlier post; I question EVERYTHING as well - thought I was the only one!
Tien, Thanks for the Input. I Imagine my Cousin has the same feelings but won't know till Next week. Are Cops allowed to have Blogs, I wonder?
Kevin, Well, IMO, you have a healthy View of Reality!
;)
On another Note: Just Saw the Daily Show with Jon Stewart. Who Knew Ted Koppel could be so Funny?!?!
I think the single most interesting thing about the protests is that mingled among the so-called anarchists and radical liberals, are policemen and firemen who are picketing for better wages and benefits. I mean what happens when NYPD / FDNY protesters and NYPD / FDNY in uniform collide? Is it like reaching across into a parallel universe and thus breaking the space time continuum? Or are we talking some kind of biblical smackdown of Cain & Abel proportions, where one brother is pitted against another?
It is humor- unless you agree with the Post letters from readers
Well Max, As some one who's been Told "F___ You, You Hate America!" (*I* Hate America for Questioning the Gov't?? It was Bizzare...) I Have heard that by protesting, Protesters are "Assisitng" Terrorists. Actually it was on FOX Cable (What A Shock!) not in that Rag called the Ny Post...
What A Novel Idea! The Excercising of the 1st Ammendment Aiding Terrorists! Wait. This is the Administration that had John Ashcroft Cover a statue of Justice with a Blanket...
SD> My view of reality is inspired by David Lynch (and Sartre lately) so I'm not sure how healthy it is... ;-)
"if i were in the "heartland" and i saw ordinary citizens being arrested for acting in accordance with their lawfully protected freedoms, i would be moved to their cause."
First of all, I have to say, I loathe the word Heartland... WTF is that supposed to mean. Second of all, most people, including those supposed 'heartlanders' acknowledge the right of freedom of speech and protest, if you actually look at the history of that region, you'd see it. What is viewed with disgust are those annoying brick throwing kids who when actually cornered about why they are out there can barely manage to string together a coherent thought stating their social and/or political views leading the rest of us to dismiss them as that stupid kid who just likes to set stuff on fire.
opps, I hit post before I intended. Additionally, I've participated in protests here in Chicago when the iraq war began (remember we shut down Lake Shore Drive) so don't misunderstand my point, protest for a cause is healthy, but know what the hell you're protesting before you show up.