RNC Protests Get Heated

Hey guys,

First of all just because Yusuke Banno (he is a friend of mine who goes by the name, Josh) got arrested for those things... doesn't mean he did them. Don't tell me you all have never heard of the police making stuff up to "make an example" out of people...using people at the scene...which Josh was. A cop Burned his own hand on the flame...someone had to pay for that!In fact, Josh is not a violent kid AT ALL, for that matter, the day before the incident took place, he sent me an email asking if I would be kind enough to give him and a few friends of his some Yoga Lessons in exchange for them helping me start a vegetable garden. Me, Josh, and 16 other Tucson kids went down to Mexico during our spring break last year to plant community gardens in impoverished communities. Josh often spends his whole days feeding the homeless people of Tucson. When is the last time you did something so selfless? So before you start labeling these "violent anarchist kids" and pointing out everything you think they do wrong, consider that the article you are reading from might not give all the information. You weren't there, and neither was I, so we can't judge the people at the scene. I can defend my peaceful friend though, who is sitting in jail right now in New York with some pretty serious (and undoubtedly exagerated or false) charges.

Thanks, and feel free to respond,

Nicole Sanderson

Okay, I read them. I still think the Critical Mass people should have sucked it up. Yes, the cuffs hurt, yes the holding place was nasty - but it's par the course. If you didn't want to risk being arrested, you shouldn't have gone along. I didn't and that's why. I cannot afford to be arrested right now, period. It was a consideration I had to seriously think about and make a choice on. It isn't like you don't know the NYPD - they WILL arrest you. I chose instead to march - not to do anything illegal. I had that choice, so did you. But if I did go and did get arrested - I would fight the charges like hell and hope I got cut a break (criminal mischief charges at a peace rally aren't murder, after all) but I wouldn't be whining (yes, whining) about HOW I got arrested. If you say you didn't think it was a possibility - you're lying. If you thought the cops would cuff you with kittens and put you in a four star hotel - you're just an idiot. Wake up, did you just move here? If you thought things were so GOOD and FAIR, what were you protesting?

Don't do shit halfway is all I'm saying.

Haven't read the responses yet (oh boy, can't wait) - but I wanted to admit my being SO wrong about the police. I defended their actions concerning Friday's arrests only to hear that now they are being jackasses and arresting anyone they can. So, scratch my defense of them, pronto. Now they are truly violating people's rights and it's just wrong. So much for the law, eh? I figured with my big mouth yesterday, I should at least admit when I'm dead wrong about something.

Dazzle2112, you really can't read, can you?

I said I was not a martyr. I said Pier 57 doesn't have to be Guantanamo. It is a detention center, a makeshift jail created to house and process protesters for bogus charges. And one not as comfortable as sleeping on the floor of a sterile hospital floor or bus center. I've been there. You haven't. Obviously.

I love how when you have nothing to say you resort to name calling. You're no better than the people you deride, and quite possibly worse because you claim purchase on protests yet have no facts to back up your claims. And you're telling me to shut up?

ricko, you're simply a huge whining pussy. And you know what? United for Peace and Justice has officially "jumped the shark" in comparing the pier 57 holding facility as New York's own "Guantanamo".

Give us all a break! It trivializes what is happening at Guantanamo and simply puts people on the cross as self proclaimed martyrs.

Well, "Steel Balls" Dazzle Has laid down the Word...

<Rolleyes>

"your comparision to MLK Jr. and others is sad, pathetic and filled with self-importance."?

That's Me "self-important".

The point is: They have a right to protest their treatment. They aren't Being "Babies" (Wow, talk about the Pot Calling the Kettle Black!)

You slept on a Cleaned airport, bus station floors and Hospital Floor? Well, I sincerly regret that you were in a situaton the called for it, But how does sleeping on a Clean floor compare to a Cement Floor that has Motor Oil and other chemicals on it??

Guys, I don't know about you, But I'm tired of "Steel Balls" Dazzle and "Your A bunch of Wussies" nonsense. About being Arrested, He's not speaking from Experiance AKA Blowing Smoke. (Unlike "Steel Balls", I prefer NOT to curse people. But I admit to Endearing Comments...)

I'm ignoring As I said Before Methinks He Protests Too Much. Before he rants on for another couple of Hundred words, I'm choosing to ignore his "Your a Bunch of Wussies" rant. Just Remember Dazzle, You'll always be "Steel Balls" to the rest of us.

Elvis Has Left The Building!!

Wow, Dazzle and Nicole -- I'm not sure you guys are really reading what's being said here.

There are a lot of people with the balls to speak out about things they feel are wrong. People don't protest against "fair! right!" you know.

I am not a martyr, nor am I bellyaching. I too spent time on the floor in the hospital for a loved one, and time in the lock-up. Comparing jail with a missed plane or bus or overnight stay is just plain laughable. But if you feel you need to deride and discount others for their experiences, that is your decision.

And for the record: IT SUCKS THAT I GOT ARRESTED, BUT IT WAS FOR A GOOD REASON. AND IF I HAD THE CHANCE TO DO IT AGAIN, DAMMIT, I WOULD. I DID NOTHING WRONG. AND WILL, ALONG WITH MY CELLMATES FIGHT THE BOGUS CHARGES.

I'm wondering what you think of the people getting arrested at this very minute. They're just yuppie whiners? Charging scooters, telescoping batons, mace, protest pens and arresting entire blocks wholesale compared to billyclubs and tear gas?

What business do you work in? Spin? Creative listening?

I've got pictures from the protests posted here.

Don't be a jerk about those handcuffs. The plastic handcuffs can do serious, permanent damage. I know more than one person with permanent nerve damage from them.

Nicole said:

"If just one stood up and said "I broke the law and it was worth it to get the message out there." I'd totally worship them. THAT'S a person I can respect. But nope. Just a bunch of "Not fair! Not right!" whining."

This says it all. In the big picture, the Critical Mass riders really at no point focused on the positive aspects of what they tried to achieve. I have yet to hear ONE person from Critical Mass say "It sucks we got arrested, but it was for a good cause."

In the big picture it's whining and petulance and bellyaching.

Ditto with the bike protest guy who has spent months promoting himself with the skill of public relations person but when push comes to shove he was arrested... While doing a photo-op...

How about you protestors actually protest instead of promoting yourself or whining about how "uncomfortable" you feel when cops pen you in.

Take it like and adult and stand up for yourself! And the bloggers who are complaining and "shocked" they were arrested? Give us all a break. Just because you downloaded MovableType and registered a domain does not make you special enough to rise above what anyone who protests goes through.

Grow up!

S.D., I'm well aware of went down in the 60s and 70s. But in the end, your comparision to MLK Jr. and others is sad, pathetic and filled with self-importance.

And I am correct when I say that people did not whine. They did something and recognized the level of crap they dealt with.

In contrast, Critical Mass riders who were arrested are whining babies. They DID feed you; you just didn't want to accept the food they gave you. When plastic cuffs were put on too tight, the gave you new cuffs! And when all is said and done, when you were let out a day later you got ALL of your gear and equipment back.

All things considered, that's a damned cake walk son.

"Are you speaking from Experience? Ever been arrested and have to Spend overnight on a Smelly Floor with No padding? Give it a Shot, I hear it is a Blast. The Most given to me was a Warning when Picketing City Hall."

No I haven't. But I know from working in the business in NYC that you basically had it easy. Very easy. The whole fact Critical Mass riders were arrested were wrong, but the constant belly-aching of how "traumatic" the event was is pathetic and sad.

I've had to sleep on hospital floors and airport and bus station floors overnight for various reasons. And while not pleasant, it was not as horrific as some would make it to be. That perspective only comes from a cushy life.

And for the record, the hospital floors were due to illnesses of loved ones. And the airport and bus station floors were due to cancelled or late connections.

You won't be voting for Bloomberg? *clap* *clap*. You and ONLY you will be the reason he might lose. In the big picture the chances of him getting re-elected are very good. Even moreso nowadays.

Lest you forget as much as even I hated Guilliani, it seems that Mayors who come down hard on issues win. And in this case, I cannot see this event hurting Bloomberg.

Like I said before, the arrests were wrong. But all things considered if you weight the collective whining of the blog community to what actually happened, I can only quote David Cross and say:

"Shut up you fucking baby!"

If you enter the mosh pit expect to get shoved. Ride the Subway at rush hour, expect to be crowded. Need to go to a bathroom but can't find one, deal with it. Life is tough. And if you put yourself in a situation where you're setting yourself up to be a target, more power to you! But expect to be a target and deal with it.

Critical Mass riders were nowhere near Martin Luther King Jr. and others. To hear you brats compare yourself to people who REALLY put their lives on the line and really were in life/death situations is pathetic but predictable.

Okay, okay. I am on your side politics-wise, I just don't share your opinion of the protests.

Concerning the 60's stuff - yes, there were complaints and lawsuits back then - because they got the CRAP kicked out of them! To compare what protests in the 60's were like to this glorified bike race is just ridiculous. Plastic handcuffs as compared to tear gas and billy clubs? Uh, no. So, try as you might to compare this to the 60's - it doesn't even come close. Protestors had BALLS in those days. And they didn't expect to get away with anything. They took responsibility for their actions, whatever they were.

That said, I can't say I agree about the arrests being so horrifying and wrong. I think they were par the course for what was trying to be achieved - I'm just disappointed none of these protestors are willing to be held accountable for what they did. If just one stood up and said "I broke the law and it was worth it to get the message out there." I'd totally worship them. THAT'S a person I can respect. But nope. Just a bunch of "Not fair! Not right!" whining.

I would bet every cent I have that no one from Critical Mass applied or even tried to get any kind of permit or permission for this. They were enjoying the fact that they were breaking the law, then got mad when they had to pay a price for it. I've read DOZENS of accounts of people that were trapped (including ambulances) or put in dangerous driving situations by this protest. While your cause and hearts may have been in the right place - what you did WAS STILL ILLEGAL. To block traffic and ride through lights into traffic as a group IS against the law. Sorry, it is. To expect to break the law and have ZERO consequences for it is kind of foolish, don't you think? This is not a political statement, this is a fact. Jeez, you could make an argument for anything if it's in the guise of the greater good - but it doesn't make it LEGAL.

If instead of threatening lawsuits - maybe step up and be proud you were arrested for a cause you believe in. Fight the charges by all means, but wear it like a badge of courage and not whine about the law not bending to you. I mean, if they arrested people for just marching or something it's a different story - but these guys set out to break the law, then bitched when they got busted? Sorry, but I call bullshit.

Dazzle, Methinks thou dost Protest too much.

Granted, not many of us Have the Balls of Stainless Steel you imply to have, but Spending the Night Penned up with No bed and No certainty as to when you are getting out Is NOT a picnic. While I agree with you Re: the Idiocy of The Anarchist Wanna-be's, IMO, you're way off base re: Friday night arrests.

"No marching or chanting or anything put Nixon out of office except his own wrong doings"?

Maybe not, but it's people expressing their disaproval. Think that has no effect on Politicians and the Public? Then why do they run Polls? They want to know what the people think.

"Nobody in the 1960s whined and cried about being arrested."? How Old Are you anyway?? And the ACLU and several Lawsuits later indicate that people "whined" about the arrests. Remeber MLK jr?? Oddly enough, when they weren't fed, the Complained Or "Whined" as you seem to like to say.

Are you speaking from Experience? Ever been arrested and have to Spend overnight on a Smelly Floor with No padding? Give it a Shot, I hear it is a Blast. The Most given to me was a Warning when Picketing City Hall.

Oh and for your Information: The Arrests convinced me NOT to vote For Mike Bloomberg in the Next Election. Prior to Saturday Morning, I *WAS* undecided. So, this had some affect after all. Wait, One vote doesn't Count, you may say?

Tell that to Florida.

hi dazzle, it's 2004. you can dig up the 60s and 70s all you want, but the bottom line is that you have no idea what sort of effect peaceful protesting has on public opinion. neither do i. nobody does... it's pure speculation. some things are too complex, subtle, nuanced, or chaotic to measure. you have no idea how the person next to you is reacting. you can state your opinion, but that's different from 'getting something straight'.

Let's also get something straight about the power of protesting. The most vivid example of protesting failing to change an election was the 1960s and Vietnam. No amount of protesting removed anyone from office. And when Nixon did finally step down, it had nothing to do with Vietnam or public opinion. It had to do with Watergate and his deceptions and law-breaking. And that's it.

No marching or chanting or anything put Nixon out of office except his own wrong doings.

So as much as I spiritually sympathize with the protestors, I really have to question the extreme loons who think that being extreme will actually affect change. It doesn't at all.

And regarding the Critical Mass issue, please stop whining. In the great scheme of things the arrests were wrong. But what happened to the cyclists is a joke at best. It's like hearing a trust-fund baby whine because their parents decided that they had to get a summer job. Get over it.

Nobody in the 1960s whined and cried about being arrested. In fact it was a given that if you made the choice to do something, that's the risk you take.

Bloggers are the most fragile babies on earth. You got arrested for less than a day? Go write an essay on the "ordeal" and submit it to Harper's so Lewis Lapham and you can hang out and commiserate.

badger, i'm from iowa. quite rural. in my case and most of my friends and family, if we witnessed uprisings of this scale we would feel compelled to ask what it's all about. it would pique our curiosity and drive us to vote where we would normally not give a crap because 'politics is such a sham and it has nothing to do with us'. it would give us something more to believe in than what we got out of the relentless attack ads. you know how bad the advertising is there... people want to hear what actual PEOPLE think, not this round-and-round arguing on tv. large scale protests give people a voice that would otherwise not be heard.

you simply can't compare this election and/or protest to anything in the past. especially not the 60s and 70s. everything is different.

again, your theory is interesting, but there is no way of saying it's accurate. i admit that it might be, and it might be just the reverse. interestingly, you're promoting your theory much like that guy in the gucci store/car lot who insists you must listen to him because he knows what's best for you.... :)

Hyperbolic commentary? Ok.

I did not break any laws. I AM appearing in court because of my belief that I did not break the law and intend to fight it however I can. Civil disobedience is important. To be thought a threat because I am on my bike construes disorder? Come on.

On the other hand, you're right about my photographs being rather tame. Certainly I did not photograph the unmarked officers on scooters riding down the long-block sidewalks weaving through pedestrian traffic, although I would have liked to. I would have liked to photograph the cuffs coming on, but that's pretty difficult to do with hands in the ties. Forget about trying to take any more images on camera afterwards.

I'm not bitching "after the fact." In fact, I feel that the whole documentary process of the photos and the apparent mundanity is necessary to show this movement is not a bunch of disorderly anarchists who will fight with authority, destroying property and disrupting traffic. Rather, it is a group of individuals -- individuals, mind you -- that were arrested for following orders. First to get on the sidewalk, then to get in the street.

I'm NOT complaining that I got arrested. Far from it. I am a law abiding citizen who pays taxes, is friendly with the neighbors. I'm your average schlub. That they arrested medics, legal counsel, and others more committed to keeping order is astounding to me.

That they then spent 3 hours detaining us, totally closing off the street that we would have passed in a minute is outlandish. An officer pulling the ties down so that there was no circulation to the hands after someone asked for a slight loosening is unfair. Eventually, after seeing the detainee's bloodless hands, the officer removed the cuffs and put new ones on - to the profound thanks of everyone. The fact that the officers can do something to the threshold of legality and overstep it because they are the law is unreasonable.

It was no Gunatanamo. It doesn't need to be. You should not be arrested and detained for being an "obstruction of traffic" otherwise the entrance to the Holland Tunnel at rush hour would just be ridiculous -- Imagine car drivers being carted away, their cars being impounded. What do police officers normally give in that situation? A citiation, so their treatment of we "whining yuppies" is unfair. I never said it was jail like. It was jail. And so was the central holding area. A jail where I got printed and photographed and put into their system, and quite possibly other systems as well.

Don't you think a place where you wake up & go out the door with the expectation of being arrested is wrong?

Hyperbolic commentary? Ok.

I did not break any laws. I AM appearing in court because of my belief that I did not break the law and intend to fight it however I can. Civil disobedience is important. To be thought a threat because I am on my bike construes disorder? Come on.

On the other hand, you're right about my photographs being rather tame. Certainly I did not photograph the unmarked officers on scooters riding down the long-block sidewalks weaving through pedestrian traffic, although I would have liked to. I would have liked to photograph the cuffs coming on, but that's pretty difficult to do with hands in the ties. Forget about trying to take any more images on camera afterwards.

I'm not bitching "after the fact." In fact, I feel that the whole documentary process of the photos and the apparent mundanity is necessary to show this movement is not a bunch of disorderly anarchists who will fight with authority, destroying property and disrupting traffic. Rather, it is a group of individuals -- individuals, mind you -- that were arrested for following orders. First to get on the sidewalk, then to get in the street.

I'm NOT complaining that I got arrested. Far from it. I am a law abiding citizen who pays taxes, is friendly with the neighbors. I'm your average schlub. That they arrested medics, legal counsel, and others more committed to keeping order is astounding to me.

That they then spent 3 hours detaining us, totally closing off the street that we would have passed in a minute is outlandish. An officer pulling the ties down so that there was no circulation to the hands after someone asked for a slight loosening is unfair. Eventually, after seeing the detainee's bloodless hands, the officer removed the cuffs and put new ones on - to the profound thanks of everyone. The fact that the officers can do something to the threshold of legality and overstep it because they are the law is unreasonable.

It was no Gunatanamo. It doesn't need to be. You should not be arrested and detained for being an "obstruction of traffic" otherwise the entrance to the Holland Tunnel at rush hour would just be ridiculous -- Imagine car drivers being carted away, their cars being impounded. What do police officers normally give in that situation? A citiation, so their treatment of we "whining yuppies" is unfair. I never said it was jail like. It was jail. And so was the central holding area. A jail where I got printed and photographed and put into their system, and quite possibly other systems as well.

Don't you think a place where you wake up & go out the door with the expectation of being arrested is wrong?

you may be correct badger, but i'm not convinced. unfortunately there is no data that can be accurately applied to this situation. i grew up in a midwest swing state as well and was totally apathetic when it came to politics. most people i knew never voted. however, if i read in the papers about what was happening here in nyc -- that the people were taking to the streets to protest our leader -- i would have taken more of an interest, read up, and certainly voted against the war president. like i say, who knows... it's an interesting theory, but there are counter theories as well.

Ricko, not to downplay your efforts which I'm sure were great and I'm quite anti-Bush too - but what am I supposed to be seeing in those pictures? I see no violence, no brutality - just a whole lot of written in hyperbolic comments by you. The plastic cuffs hurt? Gawd. You knew, didn't you, that there was a chance you'd be arrested? I was told that ALL the Critical Mass correspondence pre-protest said this right out. You wanted to disrupt traffic - that was THE PLAN. Then why so shocked and surprised when you actually GOT arrested? Yes, your cause was good and I support it - but they're COPS. Their job is to keep the streets open and traffic moving. Of course you got arrested. That was kind of the point, wasn't it? Being willing to go to jail to make a political statement? You didn't think they'd just let you take over the streets and do nothing, did you? If so, you didn't read the fine print before signing on. For people to talk about lawsuits now is just a joke and spits on everything you were trying to achieve.

Sorry, but it sounds like 'We broke the law on purpose, but the plastic cuffs hurt a lot and the holding place was too jail-like and now we're going to sue.'

Abby Hoffman is somewhere laughing his ass off, I'll tell you that much. In the 60's it was billy clubs and tear gas - you guys are whining about plastic cuffs? You want to be in the action but don't really want to commit to it. Which is prefectly fine - then stay home. But don't bitch after the fact.

I did also hear a little something about terror warnings - trust me, the cops are worried about a lot more than protestors this week. They've got to arrest people they probably agree with while trying to figure out where the real danger is. Is that a terrorist or just some kid with a Bush mask? Given the circumstances, I'm surprised they were as calm as they were. They probably didn't have to be.

Let me spell it out in simple strokes so people get it:

a) Critical Mass cyclists being arrested = bad

b) Whining about the "coditions" of the holding cells = pathetic

Give us all a break. You were not in Abu Grahib. You were not in Gunatanamo Bay. You were being held in an impromtu holding-area/prison. And that's it.

I too read Mike's tale of the "ordeal", but the second I started to loose sympathy was when he started to whine like a baby about the sandwiches they gave him and others. Boo hoo! You did not get a croissant with cheese and a pino grigio to wash it down with. You got sandwiches. And they weren't to your liking so you're complaining. Chemical burns? Give us all a break. I'm sure that stripping paint off of furniture will damage your skin more.

When all is said and done, all of my sympathy towards Critical Mass went down the drain when the incesant whining began. And after reading about this particular Critical Mass ride I call bullshit on the claims that this was just like the other rides they do every month. It's clear they went out of their way to make this Critical Mass ride a protest on wheels. So frankly, they should have been dispersed.

Arrested? No. Nobody should have been arrested. But whining about the conditions about where you're held? Whining fucking babies. Every one of them. Especially high profile bloggers like Mike.

The right to protest also implies you understand the risks involved. And if you're going to bitch and moan like a bunch of spoiled petulant babies, then you get no sympathy. Even from people like me who will not vote for Bush and hate these Republicans with a passion.

bike bloc photos. and no, i'm not a yuppie whiner.

pictures of my arrest. and no, i was not being confrontational.

those damn cuffs hurt.

I agree with the person that said most of these violent protestors are just rich kids with too much free time. While I support their sentiment, I in no way support their methods. It's all fun and games until someone gets hurt - and someone ALWAYS gets hurt. Then it's crying and saying "We didn't mean for anyone to get hurt!" These idiots do NOT represent me - I'm anti-Bush, not anti-brain.

As for the Critical Mass bicycle protest/ride - it was great. Great idea, great execution - until Monday morning when suddenly there's talk of class action lawsuits and endless yuppie whining. What a pussy way to go out. What did they think was going to happen? Friday night I cheered you on, today I wish you'd just shut up.

It was a joy to see the protests this weekend, but the dragon float fire and these idiotic anarchist movements only insult us and our true cause. How do you prove the Republicans wrong when you're acting like terrorists yourselves?

Morons.

I wasn't just referring to the asbestos. Mike from Satan's Laundromat reported people with chemical burns.

"I also disapprove of putting protesters in an industrial pier that appears to be toxic:"

Oh man, the hyperbole! I know about the stupid Critical Mass arrests. But man oh man, stop crying like babies about it. I did say it was not great, but the amount whining about it is amazing!

Contaminated? Spending 1 day in an area filled with asbestos is not "toxic" and will not change your life. There was diesel fuel on the floor? Whatever. Not ideal conditions, but all things considered the accomodations is not the issue. It's a temporary prison; not a Ramada Inn. The issue is they should have never been arrested to begin with. The issue of the conditions of the place is laughable and just shows how cushy some people have it.

Anything else is a laughable complaint. The roofers on the buildind next door to me are being exposed to more toxic materials as part of their daily job.

Hey Bloomberg! Next time you arrest privileged white protestors, please be sure to have fluffy pillows and DSL access so they can "blog" about it.

I oppose the arrests of the Critical Mass people. But it's headshakingly laughable to hear people whine about the "conditions". Heck, anarchists in squats live in worse conditions.

I completely disapprove of that man being attacked. I don't know how to make that clearer. I am adamantly opposed to violence of any kind. I have a number of friends who received settlements from the NYPD after being beaten by them during AIDS demonstrations.

I also disapprove of putting protesters in an industrial pier that appears to be toxic:

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/08/31/1433217

See also Satan Laundromat's write-up, linked earlier by Gothamist.

Here is a story (from the Post!) about the SUV:

http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/27683.htm

barry:

"I have no idea if he just "happened to be there" or if he rode his scooter right into the middle of a crowd. An SUV knocked a number of cyclists off their bikes during Critical Mass, and no arrest was made. With all of those cops, it got away."

You know how many times during the day the average New Yorker gets nearly hit by cyclists not obeying basic traffic laws? Or cyclists riding on sidewalks?

I think the Critical Mass arrests were stupid and a mistake. But when all is said and done, Critical Mass does provoke riders to provoke others. An SUV knocked some people off their bikes? If that really happened, I find it odd how not one Critical Mass person saw fit to take down a plate number and do something.

A car almost hit me a few weeks ago and I was able to get the plate number. What is so difficult about doing that when in a mass of other cyclists?

Whining crybabies and people who are making excuses for a man being hospitalized.

Critical Mass is not so important that their arrests somehow excuse the behavior of people pummeling someone into the hospital.

Don't twist my words. I did not say I approved of violence.

I have no idea if he just "happened to be there" or if he rode his scooter right into the middle of a crowd. An SUV knocked a number of cyclists off their bikes during Critical Mass, and no arrest was made. With all of those cops, it got away.

barry:

"Why are there plain-clothesed policemen riding their scooters into the middle of demonstrations? Why can't they have their uniforms on or have a badge out when they do that?"

Why can't they be there? And if they are there, what is wrong with them NOT being pummeled by protestors. What if that guy was not a cop and simply a poor civilian attacked? Would that make it better or worse? Heck, what about anarchists not revealing their last names? And adopting fake names? C'mon, those people are far from angels.

And if I were in that crown with people beating that poor guy up I would have done something to stop it. And if that something means taking a boot and kicking it straight in an anarchist ass, then so be it.

In the end you protestors and apologists are your own worst enemy. Keep it up and at this rate Bush will be in office until 2008.

Arrogant morons.

Why are there plain-clothesed policemen riding their scooters into the middle of demonstrations? Why can't they have their uniforms on or have a badge out when they do that?

Given all of the scary freeper people bragging on their web site about kicking some ass, I would be quite disturbed to have someone who looks like a cop zooming up to me in a scooter suddenly.

Note that I am NOT saying the proper response to that is to attack them.

Growler, Maybe it's me, but that's not true of Most of the people I know here in NYC. IMO: Most people will discuss Opposing Politcal issues reasonably.

Hmm, Maybe it is Me!

badger, I agree with you about trying to discuss politics in the heartland.

Funny thing is if you ever try to discuss politics here in NYC with someone who doesn't agree with you (e.g. Kevin). You get the same reaction. I know Republicans who live here; they tend to keep their mouths shut.

hello dazzle2112. at no point have i condoned violence. how much more clearly can a state this for you? if you don't believe me, please just reread the comments. i think we're in agreement but you're just confused over what you think i said.

nola was condemning violence (which i very clearly agreed with) but then nola supports the current violent administration. i was pointing out nola's double standard. the 'can't have your cake...' argument is for nola not me.

hey, is there something going on at MSG this week? springsteen?

hey, is there something going on at MSG this week? springsteen?

Oooh, Kevin, a Hotmail address. That's as good as a fake one. Maybe I should open up a Hotmail account and use the address here so I can get your misinformed arguments and possibly your threats via e-mail instead of wasting Gothamist's bandwidth.

What do you advocate? "Meaningful" violence?

"my response to nola was saying that just as a violent street thug gets no respect, neither does a government that behaves the same way."

You can't have your cake and eat it too. You're basically excusing violence for violence.

For what it's worth, the Republicans are only "the government" for now. There's a chance for us to kick them out in a few months. And by condoning violence alll you're doing is assuring swing voters that a vote for Kerry is a vote for violent idiots. And that is the wrong message.

you're still not hearing me dazzle2112. i in no way support this violent behavior. i did not even defend it. violence is pointless.

my response to nola was saying that just as a violent street thug gets no respect, neither does a government that behaves the same way.

hijiki:

"dazzle, man, you're losing me. are you saying now that america SHOULD be violently attacking innocent people after we both agreed that violence is a non-starter? you simply can't brutalize people and expect good things to come out of it."

hijiki, you sound like a very intelligent person. Let me ask you this. How exactly does pummeling a cop into the hospital or harrassing elederly theater goers change any of this?

Also, hijiki as a citizen of the U.S.--which I assume you are--how do you think acting like this will mean people will take you seriously?

More to the point, I want Bush out of office as soon as possible. How does you actions support these goals?

"Earth to hijiki, but harassing the elderly and threatening them with physical harm will not change anything. Pummeling a cop into unconsciousness will not change anything."

dazzle, do you have a reading problem? what was my very first sentence? her ya go: "nola, i fully agree with your points regarding the stupidity of violence". that means i in no way support those actions. i was to pointing out how hypocritical nola was being by advocating non-violence while supporting a violent government that scares the rest of the world.

"And all other countries are innocent. And the U.S. is the worst country in the world. And if we don't do things like violently attack people for no reason, this will not change."

dazzle, man, you're losing me. are you saying now that america SHOULD be violently attacking innocent people after we both agreed that violence is a non-starter? you simply can't brutalize people and expect good things to come out of it.

Kevin, " Genius idea; make money off of republicans. Wow - that'll show 'em! Let's ee the logic here, they're all poor so overpsending in NYC will result in their bankruptcy."

You obviously cannot read. But if they are rich and they have the money, milk them for all they are worth. Unless you think it's better to beg on street corners to make money to pay for protest equipment.

Also, you're concept of getting service industry workers to NOT work shows how shallow--and possibly--spoiled you are. Many people in the service industry make NO real money. Nada. Zilch. They work their asses off to live and survive. To ask THEM to take "a stand" by denying them a salary is idiocy; plain and simple.

Regarding my philosophy on this, go read Sun Tzu's "Art of War". You'll find that making an enemy comfortable is a great way to win power over them. It's a great philosophy that actually works in the real/non-trust-fund world. The world "the rest of us" live and work in.

hijiki said:

"nola, i fully agree with your points regarding the stupidity of violence, but your fooling yourself if you think you're not vandalizing and terrorizing peoples all over the world with your support for the current administration. with every brutal dictatorship in latin america you support, every dollar you give to israel to repress palestinians, every bit of corporate welfare that aids exploitation of poor workers in southeast asia, every iraqi human you kill, you leave more people filled with bad feelings toward america. you're breeding hate and making the world more dangerous. in fact, you've fully embraced that violent carte blanche but you just hide behind your state sponsorship so you don't have to acknowledge your evil ways."

And all other countries are innocent. And the U.S. is the worst country in the world. And if we don't do things like violently attack people for no reason, this will not change.

Earth to hijiki, but harassing the elderly and threatening them with physical harm will not change anything. Pummeling a cop into unconsciousness will not change anything.

You know what will change things? Come election day if you can motivate enough people we can get this assrag Bush out of office. But by degrading the discussion to violence and anarchism what do you get? People who are afraid to go outside!

And I hate to point out the obvious, but if people are afraid to go outside, come election day they might still be afraid and never vote.

You want real change? Stop pulling these cowardly tactics and do something real. How about spending the same time you'd spend marching in a stupid drum circle registerting people to vote? Or working towards helping create a safe/calm environment so that come election day people feel they can cast their ballot without fear of a stupid anarchist attack ruining everything.

No anarchist "actions" will change any of this. You want Bush out of office, you need to do something more than be a bunch of thugs. Because in all honesty, we're ALL on the same side. But some of the anarchists can't figure that out.

Violence does not equal strength. And rebellion does not equal bloody. Let's vote this ass out of office and figure out ways to convince others to vote against him. And do that without being thugs.

Kevin, " Genius idea; make money off of republicans. Wow - that'll show 'em! Let's ee the logic here, they're all poor so overpsending in NYC will result in their bankruptcy."

You obviously cannot read. But if they are rich and they have the money, milk them for all they are worth. Unless you think it's better to beg on street corners to make money to pay for protest equipment.

"see" the logic - oops - guess "ee" isn't much of a word

Need my editor to proof my posts...

Bravo, Dazzle2112 and Badger.

I'm a little nervous because, although the march Sunday went well, as the week progresses, the smaller groups seem to be causing more trouble and getting arrested more often. (Or the police are more inclined to make those arrests, now that they're dealing with smaller groups and not, say, a massive mob of hundreds of thousands of people.) I understand the need to express dissent, but I sincerely hope today's events (especially those that are alarmingly near my office... just when I thought I was safe!) stay non-violent.

And I think it wasn't that easy to join the march on Sunday. I know plenty of people who didn't go because they thought it would erupt violently.

hijiki said:

"nola, i fully agree with your points regarding the stupidity of violence, but your fooling yourself if you think you're not vandalizing and terrorizing peoples all over the world with your support for the current administration. with every brutal dictatorship in latin america you support, every dollar you give to israel to repress palestinians, every bit of corporate welfare that aids exploitation of poor workers in southeast asia, every iraqi human you kill, you leave more people filled with bad feelings toward america. you're breeding hate and making the world more dangerous. in fact, you've fully embraced that violent carte blanche but you just hide behind your state sponsorship so you don't have to acknowledge your evil ways."

And all other countries are innocent. And the U.S. is the worst country in the world. And if we don't do things like violently attack people for no reason, this will not change.

Earth to hijiki, but harassing the elderly and threatening them with physical harm will not change anything. Pummeling a cop into unconsciousness will not change anything.

You know what will change things? Come election day if you can motivate enough people we can get this assrag Bush out of office. But by degrading the discussion to violence and anarchism what do you get? People who are afraid to go outside!

And I hate to point out the obvious, but if people are afraid to go outside, come election day they might still be afraid and never vote.

You want real change? Stop pulling these cowardly tactics and do something real. How about spending the same time you'd spend marching in a stupid drum circle registerting people to vote? Or working towards helping create a safe/calm environment so that come election day people feel they can cast their ballot without fear of a stupid anarchist attack ruining everything.

No anarchist "actions" will change any of this. You want Bush out of office, you need to do something more than be a bunch of thugs. Because in all honesty, we're ALL on the same side. But some of the anarchists can't figure that out.

Violence does not equal strength. And rebellion does not equal bloody. Let's vote this ass out of office and figure out ways to convince others to vote against him. And do that without being thugs.

Nola> You're so courageous you put a fake e-mail address down! Practice what you preach much? Go hide under that fragile rock.

Growler> You too; another fake e-mail address! Look who takes accountability for their words here...

Dazzle> Genius idea; make money off of republicans. Wow - that'll show 'em! Let's ee the logic here, they're all poor so overpsending in NYC will result in their bankruptcy.

I love this "dialogue" you all engage in here; by childish name-calling ("twerp"/"putz"/"assholes"). What hypocrites. Plus I don't advocate meaningless violence - shows how much you blind liberals read. My only point is that we should be emotional and passionate in our political displays; not passive and overly organized and expected. Seems like my haters here love to generalize and be as ignorant as the very targets they claim to oppose.

"I disagree with Democrats on practically everything. It doesn't give me carte blanche to threaten people or vandalize property."

nola, i fully agree with your points regarding the stupidity of violence, but your fooling yourself if you think you're not vandalizing and terrorizing peoples all over the world with your support for the current administration. with every brutal dictatorship in latin america you support, every dollar you give to israel to repress palestinians, every bit of corporate welfare that aids exploitation of poor workers in southeast asia, every iraqi human you kill, you leave more people filled with bad feelings toward america. you're breeding hate and making the world more dangerous. in fact, you've fully embraced that violent carte blanche but you just hide behind your state sponsorship so you don't have to acknowledge your evil ways.

Also, Kevin reading this shows how you barely understand anything:

"Stop them from enjoying their stay in NYC. Make life difficult for them."

I don't know if you realize it, but come Friday ALL of those people are leaving no matter what. So it's not like their signing leases and moving into your neighborhood. And you know what else? The majority of them will stay in midtown and then leave. And that's it.

And regarding another gem:

"An associate of mine tried to campaign members of the NYC service industry to prevent the delegates from being "served" whilst here; too bad it never panned out."

Genius move! Take the people in the service industry and force them to make LESS money to prove your point. You want to know something? If you think Republicans are rich, milk them for all they are worth. Fleece the shit out of them by treating them well. Get huge tips and then take that money and use it for something good. Heck, buy tons of protest t-shirts and buttons or the materials to make them.

Take their money and USE their money.

Setting fire to a float?

Pummeling a cop to the point of hospitalization?

Idiocy. Think Tony Soprano and figure out how you can milk them for all their worth and make your life and your cause better.

Kevin his pathetic ilk have about as much courage as a KKK chapter in Alabama, circa 1960. Intimidating elderly delegates and knocking cops off scooters takes courage? Thank goodness most Democrats recognize what useless twerps you guys are.

Disagreement over policy is not grounds for violence. I disagree with Democrats on practically everything. It doesn't give me carte blanche to threaten people or vandalize property. Wimps like Kevin use politics as a crutch because they think it will add legitimacy to their childish games. Is their anyone over the age of sixteen who falls for their baloney?

You mean that these Young Anarchists are Webels without a Clue?!?!

I have to agree 100%. The "people" menacing others coming out of a Broadway show aren't activists, these are just simple Thugs.

Man, they even Give Skin heads a bad Rep!

;)

Bravo Dazzle2112, I could not have said it better!

You know what? If you want change and want a message to sent, acting like violents assholes will get you nowhere. It's as simple as that. There's a difference between being strong and being violent. And as the Daily News article pointed out "The stifling room was almost exclusively white." Hate to point out the obvious, but the majority of the scruffy anarchists out there come from quite cushy backgrounds and probably have more issues with their parents than anyone else. It takes a trust fund and a credit card to fund a life of slumming against "the man". The rest of us can't do that because we're too busy working and doing real things to help real lives.

If you truly want George W. Bush out of office, the one way you can assure that NOT happening to degrading the concept of protest to violence and "in your face" macho bullshit. Republicans feed off of that kind of craziness and point to it as the reason why they should be back in office.

You want Bush out? You need to be strong enough to ease back a bit and reach out to people without being a bunch of loons. It's as simple as that. Because come election day, you don't want people voting for Bush because they don't want to support the raving loons out there.

I feel really bad about the Critical Mass arrests, but if any hardcore stuff goes down today those asses deserve to be locked up for as long as possible. I'm sick of these trust fund anarchists acting like petulant arrogant babies and doing nothing but sate their egos.

You know what? If you want change and want a message to sent, acting like violents assholes will get you nowhere. It's as simple as that. There's a difference between being strong and being violent. And as the Daily News article pointed out "The stifling room was almost exclusively white." Hate to point out the obvious, but the majority of the scruffy anarchists out there come from quite cushy backgrounds and probably have more issues with their parents than anyone else. It takes a trust fund and a credit card to fund a life of slumming against "the man". The rest of us can't do that because we're too busy working and doing real things to help real lives.

If you truly want George W. Bush out of office, the one way you can assure that NOT happening to degrading the concept of protest to violence and "in your face" macho bullshit. Republicans feed off of that kind of craziness and point to it as the reason why they should be back in office.

You want Bush out? You need to be strong enough to ease back a bit and reach out to people without being a bunch of loons. It's as simple as that. Because come election day, you don't want people voting for Bush because they don't want to support the raving loons out there.

I feel really bad about the Critical Mass arrests, but if any hardcore stuff goes down today those asses deserve to be locked up for as long as possible. I'm sick of these trust fund anarchists acting like petulant arrogant babies and doing nothing but sate their egos.

"momentarily lost consciousness"?

That cop is now in St. Vincent's in serious condition. Which is not a result of falling off or being pushed off a scooter. He was kicked, punched and stomped by slome blackshirted thug.

And, Kevin, you're a putz.

"That was in front of tanks; not down blocked off streets with permits..."

I'm not sure what to make of this on

But doesn't a Peacefull protest in from of MSG let them know how people feel? Didn't the Delegates read the Daily News?

"Make life difficult for them."? Well, IMO, That's Harrasement and intimidation. The 1st Ammendment is there to ALLOW people, You, me And the GOP, from saying what they want with out fear of Intimidation and reprisal.

No Offence: I'm glad it didn't Pan out. I'm not terribly happy about Discriminataion or Political Discriminataion. IMO: It's Infantile.

Remember when People called for a Boycott of "French" products (Loved The "Freedom Fries" and "Freedom Toast"!!)? How would this be different?

I don't think harrasing strangers over their politics is the answer. I think engaging in a Dialog is much better.

That was in front of tanks; not down blocked off streets with permits...

I'm speaking of getting in the face of these idiots and telling them how you feel. Not "heckling" and running away. Stop them from enjoying their stay in NYC. Make life difficult for them. So far they're having a smooth time with unimpactful protests - just what they want. An associate of mine tried to campaign members of the NYC service industry to prevent the delegates from being "served" whilst here; too bad it never panned out.

Also: Try taking your Clothes off and getting Phothgraphed blocking traffic. It's about getting the message out. The Stripping protestors? I agree with Jen, It was a Brilliant way of getting Front pager Exposure.

Well, Kevin, That may be so, but I don't think so in these cases. This is not one man who stood before a column of tanks near Tiananmen Square on June 5, 1989.

That's Courage. This is ONE man Lowering himslf to the level of Rabble.

What was Yusuke Banno protesting? The RNC? The OTHER Protestors? I've no idea. I bet his friends egged him on and then ran for it. Heck, he tried to run for when he was arrested. That's Courage? An attempt to be a faceless Vandal?

The Crowd of people Harrasing GOP Delegates? Let keep it in scope: These are NOT brave individuals, these are small groups.

A telling moment: Someone heckeled Then Gov. Coumo. He ran to the edged of the stage pointed and said "Who Said that??". No one answered.

His point (which he beat home with a Sledge hammer..)It's easy to do a spur of the moment thing, Not so easy to stick with it and take responsibility for it.

(That heckler got me really P/O'ed: I wanted to know what he was going to do re: Cost Of Education!!!)

Actually, it takes very little courage to go be part of a huge peaceful "protest" march with hundreds or thousands of other people. But to voice your opinion directly to the target takes dedication. People nowadays have about as much emotion and inspiration as the plastic TV screens they're addicted to...

Jen, again with the NY Post as a reference?? (j/k: I know, Nescesary Evil, Old discussion... ;) )

Great. Just Perfect. The Raving lunatics have come out...

When will these people learn, When you resort to Violence and Intimidation The violence BECOMES the message! No one will hear "No War For Oil!" or "Responsible Fiscal Policy!" they will only see that Twit Burning the Float!

Now these "People" (Loved the "John Doe" attempts!) will be lumped with the Peaceful Protestors. Civil Disobedience is about Non violence and Responsibility. The IDEA is, You tell your name load and Proud when your Arrested for a NON-Violent "Crime". It's about taking responsibiliy FOR your actions like Sit-ins...

Arrrrrgggggggghhhhhhhhh!!!!!

This is great; the passion that needs to be displayed - although within reason. Peaceful and quiet protests are about as effective as whispering to someone you hate 'em. Unprovoked violence will backfire of course so the taunts and the screaming should do (unless the republicans engage). Are these conservative idiots welcome here?

I know that the cop got knocked off his scooter (and I think there was some punching and kicking, as well)...but did anyone see the footage of the police driving their scooters directly into the crowd in an attempt to make them back up? I saw this on NY1 last night and thought it looked a little extreme.