Hey guys,

First of all just because Yusuke Banno (he is a friend of mine who goes by the name, Josh) got arrested for those things... doesn't mean he did them. Don't tell me you all have never heard of the police making stuff up to "make an example" out of people...using people at the scene...which Josh was. A cop Burned his own hand on the flame...someone had to pay for that!In fact, Josh is not a violent kid AT ALL, for that matter, the day before the incident took place, he sent me an email asking if I would be kind enough to give him and a few friends of his some Yoga Lessons in exchange for them helping me start a vegetable garden. Me, Josh, and 16 other Tucson kids went down to Mexico during our spring break last year to plant community gardens in impoverished communities. Josh often spends his whole days feeding the homeless people of Tucson. When is the last time you did something so selfless? So before you start labeling these "violent anarchist kids" and pointing out everything you think they do wrong, consider that the article you are reading from might not give all the information. You weren't there, and neither was I, so we can't judge the people at the scene. I can defend my peaceful friend though, who is sitting in jail right now in New York with some pretty serious (and undoubtedly exagerated or false) charges.

Thanks, and feel free to respond,

Nicole Sanderson

Okay, I read them. I still think the Critical Mass people should have sucked it up. Yes, the cuffs hurt, yes the holding place was nasty - but it's par the course. If you didn't want to risk being arrested, you shouldn't have gone along. I didn't and that's why. I cannot afford to be arrested right now, period. It was a consideration I had to seriously think about and make a choice on. It isn't like you don't know the NYPD - they WILL arrest you. I chose instead to march - not to do anything illegal. I had that choice, so did you. But if I did go and did get arrested - I would fight the charges like hell and hope I got cut a break (criminal mischief charges at a peace rally aren't murder, after all) but I wouldn't be whining (yes, whining) about HOW I got arrested. If you say you didn't think it was a possibility - you're lying. If you thought the cops would cuff you with kittens and put you in a four star hotel - you're just an idiot. Wake up, did you just move here? If you thought things were so GOOD and FAIR, what were you protesting?

Don't do shit halfway is all I'm saying.

Haven't read the responses yet (oh boy, can't wait) - but I wanted to admit my being SO wrong about the police. I defended their actions concerning Friday's arrests only to hear that now they are being jackasses and arresting anyone they can. So, scratch my defense of them, pronto. Now they are truly violating people's rights and it's just wrong. So much for the law, eh? I figured with my big mouth yesterday, I should at least admit when I'm dead wrong about something.

Dazzle2112, you really can't read, can you?

I said I was not a martyr. I said Pier 57 doesn't have to be Guantanamo. It is a detention center, a makeshift jail created to house and process protesters for bogus charges. And one not as comfortable as sleeping on the floor of a sterile hospital floor or bus center. I've been there. You haven't. Obviously.

I love how when you have nothing to say you resort to name calling. You're no better than the people you deride, and quite possibly worse because you claim purchase on protests yet have no facts to back up your claims. And you're telling me to shut up?

ricko, you're simply a huge whining pussy. And you know what? United for Peace and Justice has officially "jumped the shark" in comparing the pier 57 holding facility as New York's own "Guantanamo".

Give us all a break! It trivializes what is happening at Guantanamo and simply puts people on the cross as self proclaimed martyrs.

Well, "Steel Balls" Dazzle Has laid down the Word...

<Rolleyes>

"your comparision to MLK Jr. and others is sad, pathetic and filled with self-importance."?

That's Me "self-important".

The point is: They have a right to protest their treatment. They aren't Being "Babies" (Wow, talk about the Pot Calling the Kettle Black!)

You slept on a Cleaned airport, bus station floors and Hospital Floor? Well, I sincerly regret that you were in a situaton the called for it, But how does sleeping on a Clean floor compare to a Cement Floor that has Motor Oil and other chemicals on it??

Guys, I don't know about you, But I'm tired of "Steel Balls" Dazzle and "Your A bunch of Wussies" nonsense. About being Arrested, He's not speaking from Experiance AKA Blowing Smoke. (Unlike "Steel Balls", I prefer NOT to curse people. But I admit to Endearing Comments...)

I'm ignoring As I said Before Methinks He Protests Too Much. Before he rants on for another couple of Hundred words, I'm choosing to ignore his "Your a Bunch of Wussies" rant. Just Remember Dazzle, You'll always be "Steel Balls" to the rest of us.

Elvis Has Left The Building!!

Wow, Dazzle and Nicole -- I'm not sure you guys are really reading what's being said here.

There are a lot of people with the balls to speak out about things they feel are wrong. People don't protest against "fair! right!" you know.

I am not a martyr, nor am I bellyaching. I too spent time on the floor in the hospital for a loved one, and time in the lock-up. Comparing jail with a missed plane or bus or overnight stay is just plain laughable. But if you feel you need to deride and discount others for their experiences, that is your decision.

And for the record: IT SUCKS THAT I GOT ARRESTED, BUT IT WAS FOR A GOOD REASON. AND IF I HAD THE CHANCE TO DO IT AGAIN, DAMMIT, I WOULD. I DID NOTHING WRONG. AND WILL, ALONG WITH MY CELLMATES FIGHT THE BOGUS CHARGES.

I'm wondering what you think of the people getting arrested at this very minute. They're just yuppie whiners? Charging scooters, telescoping batons, mace, protest pens and arresting entire blocks wholesale compared to billyclubs and tear gas?

What business do you work in? Spin? Creative listening?

I've got pictures from the protests posted here.

Don't be a jerk about those handcuffs. The plastic handcuffs can do serious, permanent damage. I know more than one person with permanent nerve damage from them.

Nicole said:

"If just one stood up and said "I broke the law and it was worth it to get the message out there." I'd totally worship them. THAT'S a person I can respect. But nope. Just a bunch of "Not fair! Not right!" whining."

This says it all. In the big picture, the Critical Mass riders really at no point focused on the positive aspects of what they tried to achieve. I have yet to hear ONE person from Critical Mass say "It sucks we got arrested, but it was for a good cause."

In the big picture it's whining and petulance and bellyaching.

Ditto with the bike protest guy who has spent months promoting himself with the skill of public relations person but when push comes to shove he was arrested... While doing a photo-op...

How about you protestors actually protest instead of promoting yourself or whining about how "uncomfortable" you feel when cops pen you in.

Take it like and adult and stand up for yourself! And the bloggers who are complaining and "shocked" they were arrested? Give us all a break. Just because you downloaded MovableType and registered a domain does not make you special enough to rise above what anyone who protests goes through.

Grow up!

S.D., I'm well aware of went down in the 60s and 70s. But in the end, your comparision to MLK Jr. and others is sad, pathetic and filled with self-importance.

And I am correct when I say that people did not whine. They did something and recognized the level of crap they dealt with.

In contrast, Critical Mass riders who were arrested are whining babies. They DID feed you; you just didn't want to accept the food they gave you. When plastic cuffs were put on too tight, the gave you new cuffs! And when all is said and done, when you were let out a day later you got ALL of your gear and equipment back.

All things considered, that's a damned cake walk son.

"Are you speaking from Experience? Ever been arrested and have to Spend overnight on a Smelly Floor with No padding? Give it a Shot, I hear it is a Blast. The Most given to me was a Warning when Picketing City Hall."

No I haven't. But I know from working in the business in NYC that you basically had it easy. Very easy. The whole fact Critical Mass riders were arrested were wrong, but the constant belly-aching of how "traumatic" the event was is pathetic and sad.

I've had to sleep on hospital floors and airport and bus station floors overnight for various reasons. And while not pleasant, it was not as horrific as some would make it to be. That perspective only comes from a cushy life.

And for the record, the hospital floors were due to illnesses of loved ones. And the airport and bus station floors were due to cancelled or late connections.

You won't be voting for Bloomberg? *clap* *clap*. You and ONLY you will be the reason he might lose. In the big picture the chances of him getting re-elected are very good. Even moreso nowadays.

Lest you forget as much as even I hated Guilliani, it seems that Mayors who come down hard on issues win. And in this case, I cannot see this event hurting Bloomberg.

Like I said before, the arrests were wrong. But all things considered if you weight the collective whining of the blog community to what actually happened, I can only quote David Cross and say:

"Shut up you fucking baby!"

If you enter the mosh pit expect to get shoved. Ride the Subway at rush hour, expect to be crowded. Need to go to a bathroom but can't find one, deal with it. Life is tough. And if you put yourself in a situation where you're setting yourself up to be a target, more power to you! But expect to be a target and deal with it.

Critical Mass riders were nowhere near Martin Luther King Jr. and others. To hear you brats compare yourself to people who REALLY put their lives on the line and really were in life/death situations is pathetic but predictable.

Okay, okay. I am on your side politics-wise, I just don't share your opinion of the protests.

Concerning the 60's stuff - yes, there were complaints and lawsuits back then - because they got the CRAP kicked out of them! To compare what protests in the 60's were like to this glorified bike race is just ridiculous. Plastic handcuffs as compared to tear gas and billy clubs? Uh, no. So, try as you might to compare this to the 60's - it doesn't even come close. Protestors had BALLS in those days. And they didn't expect to get away with anything. They took responsibility for their actions, whatever they were.

That said, I can't say I agree about the arrests being so horrifying and wrong. I think they were par the course for what was trying to be achieved - I'm just disappointed none of these protestors are willing to be held accountable for what they did. If just one stood up and said "I broke the law and it was worth it to get the message out there." I'd totally worship them. THAT'S a person I can respect. But nope. Just a bunch of "Not fair! Not right!" whining.

I would bet every cent I have that no one from Critical Mass applied or even tried to get any kind of permit or permission for this. They were enjoying the fact that they were breaking the law, then got mad when they had to pay a price for it. I've read DOZENS of accounts of people that were trapped (including ambulances) or put in dangerous driving situations by this protest. While your cause and hearts may have been in the right place - what you did WAS STILL ILLEGAL. To block traffic and ride through lights into traffic as a group IS against the law. Sorry, it is. To expect to break the law and have ZERO consequences for it is kind of foolish, don't you think? This is not a political statement, this is a fact. Jeez, you could make an argument for anything if it's in the guise of the greater good - but it doesn't make it LEGAL.

If instead of threatening lawsuits - maybe step up and be proud you were arrested for a cause you believe in. Fight the charges by all means, but wear it like a badge of courage and not whine about the law not bending to you. I mean, if they arrested people for just marching or something it's a different story - but these guys set out to break the law, then bitched when they got busted? Sorry, but I call bullshit.

Dazzle, Methinks thou dost Protest too much.

Granted, not many of us Have the Balls of Stainless Steel you imply to have, but Spending the Night Penned up with No bed and No certainty as to when you are getting out Is NOT a picnic. While I agree with you Re: the Idiocy of The Anarchist Wanna-be's, IMO, you're way off base re: Friday night arrests.

"No marching or chanting or anything put Nixon out of office except his own wrong doings"?

Maybe not, but it's people expressing their disaproval. Think that has no effect on Politicians and the Public? Then why do they run Polls? They want to know what the people think.

"Nobody in the 1960s whined and cried about being arrested."? How Old Are you anyway?? And the ACLU and several Lawsuits later indicate that people "whined" about the arrests. Remeber MLK jr?? Oddly enough, when they weren't fed, the Complained Or "Whined" as you seem to like to say.

Are you speaking from Experience? Ever been arrested and have to Spend overnight on a Smelly Floor with No padding? Give it a Shot, I hear it is a Blast. The Most given to me was a Warning when Picketing City Hall.

Oh and for your Information: The Arrests convinced me NOT to vote For Mike Bloomberg in the Next Election. Prior to Saturday Morning, I *WAS* undecided. So, this had some affect after all. Wait, One vote doesn't Count, you may say?

Tell that to Florida.

hi dazzle, it's 2004. you can dig up the 60s and 70s all you want, but the bottom line is that you have no idea what sort of effect peaceful protesting has on public opinion. neither do i. nobody does... it's pure speculation. some things are too complex, subtle, nuanced, or chaotic to measure. you have no idea how the person next to you is reacting. you can state your opinion, but that's different from 'getting something straight'.

Let's also get something straight about the power of protesting. The most vivid example of protesting failing to change an election was the 1960s and Vietnam. No amount of protesting removed anyone from office. And when Nixon did finally step down, it had nothing to do with Vietnam or public opinion. It had to do with Watergate and his deceptions and law-breaking. And that's it.

No marching or chanting or anything put Nixon out of office except his own wrong doings.

So as much as I spiritually sympathize with the protestors, I really have to question the extreme loons who think that being extreme will actually affect change. It doesn't at all.

And regarding the Critical Mass issue, please stop whining. In the great scheme of things the arrests were wrong. But what happened to the cyclists is a joke at best. It's like hearing a trust-fund baby whine because their parents decided that they had to get a summer job. Get over it.

Nobody in the 1960s whined and cried about being arrested. In fact it was a given that if you made the choice to do something, that's the risk you take.

Bloggers are the most fragile babies on earth. You got arrested for less than a day? Go write an essay on the "ordeal" and submit it to Harper's so Lewis Lapham and you can hang out and commiserate.

badger, i'm from iowa. quite rural. in my case and most of my friends and family, if we witnessed uprisings of this scale we would feel compelled to ask what it's all about. it would pique our curiosity and drive us to vote where we would normally not give a crap because 'politics is such a sham and it has nothing to do with us'. it would give us something more to believe in than what we got out of the relentless attack ads. you know how bad the advertising is there... people want to hear what actual PEOPLE think, not this round-and-round arguing on tv. large scale protests give people a voice that would otherwise not be heard.

you simply can't compare this election and/or protest to anything in the past. especially not the 60s and 70s. everything is different.

again, your theory is interesting, but there is no way of saying it's accurate. i admit that it might be, and it might be just the reverse. interestingly, you're promoting your theory much like that guy in the gucci store/car lot who insists you must listen to him because he knows what's best for you.... :)

Hyperbolic commentary? Ok.

I did not break any laws. I AM appearing in court because of my belief that I did not break the law and intend to fight it however I can. Civil disobedience is important. To be thought a threat because I am on my bike construes disorder? Come on.

On the other hand, you're right about my photographs being rather tame. Certainly I did not photograph the unmarked officers on scooters riding down the long-block sidewalks weaving through pedestrian traffic, although I would have liked to. I would have liked to photograph the cuffs coming on, but that's pretty difficult to do with hands in the ties. Forget about trying to take any more images on camera afterwards.

I'm not bitching "after the fact." In fact, I feel that the whole documentary process of the photos and the apparent mundanity is necessary to show this movement is not a bunch of disorderly anarchists who will fight with authority, destroying property and disrupting traffic. Rather, it is a group of individuals -- individuals, mind you -- that were arrested for following orders. First to get on the sidewalk, then to get in the street.

I'm NOT complaining that I got arrested. Far from it. I am a law abiding citizen who pays taxes, is friendly with the neighbors. I'm your average schlub. That they arrested medics, legal counsel, and others more committed to keeping order is astounding to me.

That they then spent 3 hours detaining us, totally closing off the street that we would have passed in a minute is outlandish. An officer pulling the ties down so that there was no circulation to the hands after someone asked for a slight loosening is unfair. Eventually, after seeing the detainee's bloodless hands, the officer removed the cuffs and put new ones on - to the profound thanks of everyone. The fact that the officers can do something to the threshold of legality and overstep it because they are the law is unreasonable.

It was no Gunatanamo. It doesn't need to be. You should not be arrested and detained for being an "obstruction of traffic" otherwise the entrance to the Holland Tunnel at rush hour would just be ridiculous -- Imagine car drivers being carted away, their cars being impounded. What do police officers normally give in that situation? A citiation, so their treatment of we "whining yuppies" is unfair. I never said it was jail like. It was jail. And so was the central holding area. A jail where I got printed and photographed and put into their system, and quite possibly other systems as well.

Don't you think a place where you wake up & go out the door with the expectation of being arrested is wrong?

Hyperbolic commentary? Ok.

I did not break any laws. I AM appearing in court because of my belief that I did not break the law and intend to fight it however I can. Civil disobedience is important. To be thought a threat because I am on my bike construes disorder? Come on.

On the other hand, you're right about my photographs being rather tame. Certainly I did not photograph the unmarked officers on scooters riding down the long-block sidewalks weaving through pedestrian traffic, although I would have liked to. I would have liked to photograph the cuffs coming on, but that's pretty difficult to do with hands in the ties. Forget about trying to take any more images on camera afterwards.

I'm not bitching "after the fact." In fact, I feel that the whole documentary process of the photos and the apparent mundanity is necessary to show this movement is not a bunch of disorderly anarchists who will fight with authority, destroying property and disrupting traffic. Rather, it is a group of individuals -- individuals, mind you -- that were arrested for following orders. First to get on the sidewalk, then to get in the street.

I'm NOT complaining that I got arrested. Far from it. I am a law abiding citizen who pays taxes, is friendly with the neighbors. I'm your average schlub. That they arrested medics, legal counsel, and others more committed to keeping order is astounding to me.

That they then spent 3 hours detaining us, totally closing off the street that we would have passed in a minute is outlandish. An officer pulling the ties down so that there was no circulation to the hands after someone asked for a slight loosening is unfair. Eventually, after seeing the detainee's bloodless hands, the officer removed the cuffs and put new ones on - to the profound thanks of everyone. The fact that the officers can do something to the threshold of legality and overstep it because they are the law is unreasonable.

It was no Gunatanamo. It doesn't need to be. You should not be arrested and detained for being an "obstruction of traffic" otherwise the entrance to the Holland Tunnel at rush hour would just be ridiculous -- Imagine car drivers being carted away, their cars being impounded. What do police officers normally give in that situation? A citiation, so their treatment of we "whining yuppies" is unfair. I never said it was jail like. It was jail. And so was the central holding area. A jail where I got printed and photographed and put into their system, and quite possibly other systems as well.

Don't you think a place where you wake up & go out the door with the expectation of being arrested is wrong?

you may be correct badger, but i'm not convinced. unfortunately there is no data that can be accurately applied to this situation. i grew up in a midwest swing state as well and was totally apathetic when it came to politics. most people i knew never voted. however, if i read in the papers about what was happening here in nyc -- that the people were taking to the streets to protest our leader -- i would have taken more of an interest, read up, and certainly voted against the war president. like i say, who knows... it's an interesting theory, but there are counter theories as well.

Ricko, not to downplay your efforts which I'm sure were great and I'm quite anti-Bush too - but what am I supposed to be seeing in those pictures? I see no violence, no brutality - just a whole lot of written in hyperbolic comments by you. The plastic cuffs hurt? Gawd. You knew, didn't you, that there was a chance you'd be arrested? I was told that ALL the Critical Mass correspondence pre-protest said this right out. You wanted to disrupt traffic - that was THE PLAN. Then why so shocked and surprised when you actually GOT arrested? Yes, your cause was good and I support it - but they're COPS. Their job is to keep the streets open and traffic moving. Of course you got arrested. That was kind of the point, wasn't it? Being willing to go to jail to make a political statement? You didn't think they'd just let you take over the streets and do nothing, did you? If so, you didn't read the fine print before signing on. For people to talk about lawsuits now is just a joke and spits on everything you were trying to achieve.

Sorry, but it sounds like 'We broke the law on purpose, but the plastic cuffs hurt a lot and the holding place was too jail-like and now we're going to sue.'

Abby Hoffman is somewhere laughing his ass off, I'll tell you that much. In the 60's it was billy clubs and tear gas - you guys are whining about plastic cuffs? You want to be in the action but don't really want to commit to it. Which is prefectly fine - then stay home. But don't bitch after the fact.

I did also hear a little something about terror warnings - trust me, the cops are worried about a lot more than protestors this week. They've got to arrest people they probably agree with while trying to figure out where the real danger is. Is that a terrorist or just some kid with a Bush mask? Given the circumstances, I'm surprised they were as calm as they were. They probably didn't have to be.