June 22, 2004
The Dangers of Leaning on a Subway Pole
Gothamist has long wondered about subway train car etiquette - we do give up seats for the elderly, disabled, pregnant, or enchilded; we do move into the subway car when it's crowded - but we've never gotten into fights about it with people, just shot them dirty looks when they bock the train doors or refuse to move their bags from the otherwise empty seats. The Village Voice reveals that an argument between a 23 year-old woman who was leaning against a subway pole on a B train and a supervising Kings County DA over the pole led to the woman's arrest and 30 hours in lock-up! Eleanor Black and Aaron Nottage (5'2" and 5'9" respectively) argued over the pole (Nottage felt Black was hogging the pole and told her not to take up so much room; Black retorted that Nottage should not take up so much room by going on a diet), then got into a fight outside after Nottage took her bag off the train with him (Black told the Voice "I started hitting him on the arm. I grabbed his dreadlocks. I mean, I'm a girl, that's how girls fight."), then the police came... Read the Voice story for details on how Nottage threw his (figurative) weight around to make Black go through the system and how some cops felt very badly for what happened ("My heart went out to her; so did everyone's in the precinct. This guy [Nottage] was about twice her size."). Black is now out on $1,000 bail and has a hearing today. This is just a crazy, crazy story. It's a good lesson about not getting into fights on the train. And Gothamist was worried about the photo ban!
Black says she was leaning against the pole after giving up her seat to an old Chinese lady. Gothamist admits that we've leaned on poles - who hasn't - but usually during times when the train is fairly empty. We tend not to lean when there's the possibility that people would rather grab the pole, since Gothamist isn't fond of holding onto the pole when people are leaning on them...what's your subway pole policy?
|
I have NO problem locking up the rude fuckers.
When the train gets crowded, take your damn bags off of the seat, don't force yourself into a seat while wearing a backpack AND shoulder bag, don't lean on the pole - making it unuseable for others and, I know THIS will be flame bait, but the strollers were made to fold for a REASON. Hold the kid and fold the fugging SUV carriage.
I have NO problem locking up the rude fuckers.
When the train gets crowded, take your damn bags off of the seat, don't force yourself into a seat while wearing a backpack AND shoulder bag, don't lean on the pole - making it unuseable for others and, I know THIS will be flame bait, but the strollers were made to fold for a REASON. Hold the kid and fold the fugging SUV carriage.
I have NO problem locking up the rude fuckers.
When the train gets crowded, take your damn bags off of the seat, don't force yourself into a seat while wearing a backpack AND shoulder bag, don't lean on the pole - making it unuseable for others and, I know THIS will be flame bait, but the strollers were made to fold for a REASON. Hold the kid and fold the fugging SUV carriage.
Keith - agreed across the board. Get the heck off the poles, man! People are so rude on the subways.
my policy - avoid the pole at all costs unless i'm about to fall over.
Her first mistake was giving up her seat to the old Chinese lady. Anyone who's ever had the misfortune of experiencing the Canal St./6 stop knows old Chinese ladies are THE WORST subway riders ever -- pushy, predatory, and unwilling/unable to communicate with their victims in English. Plus more often than not they let their wheelie cart (or ubiquitous plastic bag collection) do the dirty work.
She deserved to be arrested. As does the staff at the Village Voice for that matter. Anyone gets poetry this bad published should be in jail:
What was that thought? She pulled a small, black, wire-bound book from her knapsack, the one she'd been holding in the tussle on the train. She opened to a page. "This one," she said.
In pencil someone had written: "All I want is to be calm and still."
Pole huggers are one of my biggest peeves on the subway. On a crowded train, I will intentionally wedge my hand between said rider and the pole, just to make them uncomfortable.
I frequently must fight the urge to say, "Is that YOUR PERSONAL POLE?" Besides not scooting in to fill the middle of the car, pole-huggers are my biggest subway pet peeve. Down with the pole-huggers!!! You know who you are!
Yeah, I don't get the slant on the story as if someone is supposed to feel sorry for the woman going to jail. So what, a woman is allowed to yank a dude's hair out and not suffer consequences? I assure you if I so much as tugged lightly on a woman's hair on the subway, as a man, my butt would be arrested with no apologies or sympathy. Rudeness and savage behavior knows no gender.
Kudos to Mr. Nottage. Finally the comeuppance these rude riders deserve. Get them all!
The pole-leaning woman got what she deserved. Let this be a lesson to all subway pole leaners/huggers (when crowded), door blockers, move-in refusers, seat baggers, leg spreaders, leg extenders, and massive backpack wearers (when crowded).
brian's (see above) is ignorant. way to go!
Aw, pushing my hand between the ple and the pole-hogger's spine is my move!
I hate people who stand in the doorway. They choose that spot then look all offended when they get knocked about by people trying to get in/out through the door.
The old Chinese lady will cut you for a seat.
Mommies and nannies everywhere: fold your fucking stroller--especially during rush hour! Also, they made those backpack/papoose things for a good reason.
Men: close your damn legs.
Fat people: Don't squeeze the already-seated trying to wedge your lard ass onto the bench. Rule of thumb: if you can't fit, don't sit!
Leaning is definitely a no-no on a crowded train. What she did and said sounds totally rude.
She got exactly what she deserved. I say let her sit in jail a couple of days and then see if she will ever be rude on the train again. The solution to these problems is to use the kind of subway poles used in Paris' Metro where each pole has about 5 branched mini-poles running parallel to the interior pole. This way there is 5 times the amount of pole to hold onto and they are nearly impossible to lean against.
we need human volume restrictions in manhattan. wink.
Oh, and speaking of shitty subway riders, let's not forget those who barge their way onto the train without waiting to let everyone off first. Destroy them all! Go Nottage, it's your birthday!
I'm with Sam and Jen W: my subway pole policy is to jam my hand between pole-leaners and the pole just to make them move. I don't think I've ever seen one of those "SubTalk" cards addressing pole-leaning. Is there one?
Agreed - this woman is rude. The punishment does not fit the crime, but the sheer lack of human decency demonstrated in the subway/bus system every day is enough to push any reasonable person to the brink. Jen W is spot-on. And can I add one thing to her list: don't even *think* about clipping your fingernails on public transit.
I prefer to stroke the pole. This tends to solve all my pole problems.
I'm guessing that some, if not all of the people on here suggesting that women fold their strollers before getting on the train have never taken care of young children. It's not as easy as you make it sound. And it's probably safer to just keep them in their stroller than take them out, fold it up, etc...
Someone's crowding you on the subway... try this, it always works: Stand very close behind them, just off the crook of their neck, and let out a long, deep breath. Trust me, they'll move. :>)
ha. And then reach in front of them and start stroking the poll...
[Subway squawk from Chicago here] I'm for the stick-your-hand-between-the back-and-the-pole move - it works pretty well with our local polehogs.
Another move that works with crowders - especially if you're backed against the train door - is to gradually "expand" your book or newspaper until it brushes against the offender. Pretend to ignore them.
Haven't tried the "breath" trick altough I think it would be brilliant if one has eaten garlic and/or not brushed.
lol :>)
I gotta say, it's probably not too practical to fold the stroller, and not that safe if you're trying to hold the kid as well, but I can tell you that when I had to go someplace with my daughter, I just stayed off the subway during rush hour. It's a pain for all involved. Fellow parents: Take a cab!
I just finished also reading the actual article in the Voice - did y'all see the size of her backpack? She's clearly one of those riders...y'all know what I'm talking about.
When crowded I usually give the pole to all the grabbers. I can reach the overhead polls so would rather fend of the few who can reach it than get into a fight over who's hand is where. Then again I got into a fight with a woman (just words) over leaning over her head too closely to read the subway map. So now, almost anything I do on the subway is half defensive / half seat cruising.
It's the subway you would think people would be more humble. I am glad she stood up for herself. That guy obviously was rude beyond compare.
Ok, could someone clear up for me the justification in taking the bag off the train with him. Does he have some right (in that situation) or as an officer of the court to take the bag out with him. Someone stole my bag, I'd take some 'initiative' in getting it back.
Don't get me wrong. Seems like she was one of the mindless (and rude) people who took up more space than needed when I rode the subway years ago. I would sling my backpack down and around and paid careful attention not to swing it around and hit people.
Hold on there lynch-mob. Leaning on subway poles is generally unacceptable; but let’s review a couple facts:
(1) “…after Nottage took her bag off the train with him...” Taking your fellow rider’s bag off the train without permission is theft. Do not tell me that under ANY circumstances, another person taking your bag -- full of apartment keys, sunglasses, iPod, laptop, metrocards and other assorted gear -- would not lead to a meltdown, or at least attempted violence. A breach of subway etiquette is bad and should result in a tongue lashing; theft is worse, and typically results in jail time.
(2) Aaron Nottage is a supervising district attorney in the Kings County D.A.'s office. Ms. Black’s resulting jail time, bail and upcoming trial is not standard procedure; and is a direct result of Mr. Nottage using his influence in a seemingly inappropriate way. The subway can be a trying experience riddled with bizarre notions of territorialism, but a DA using his influence inappropriately is far more concerning than a “pole hugger”.
I do, however, agree that her poetry constitutes some sort of criminal infraction.
Just to stir up the pot a bit: while there is no doubt she was pretty damn rude, take a look at the bigger picture for a second. Depending on who's telling the story, she's getting charged with a felony assault count because she hit a man she didn't who know ordered her off the train, then grabbed her bag when she refused. As nearly as I can tell from the Voice's "protect the little guy" bias, he didn't identify himself as an officer of the court until after she started hitting him.
I'm all for throwing the book at rude subway riders (I once dropped a shoulder into a guy who tried to get on before I could get off), but she's not being ticketed for being a public nuisance on the subway. Getting on the bad side of an ADA with a power trip is a little scary.
wow i had a crime committed against me once and he was the DA on my case! only in NY. shiiiiiit
What the hell is the matter with you people? He's a Kings County Attorney! Evidently, he stole her backpack. That the vast majority of this board sides with a DA who would use his influence to jail someone who is RUDE to him really annoys me.
Shouldn't he be reprimanded, at the very least?
Or maybe I just don't watch enough Law & Order...
uhh huhhuhhuhhuh uhuhuhhhh.... she said pole...huhhuuhhuhhhuuhee
And furthermore...
I hope she sues the shit out of that asshole.
And furthermore...
I hope she sues the shit out of that asshole.
malibu staciey you are my hero!
I was glad to read about someone, anyone, being punished for their rude subway behavior. Granted, she is definitely bearing the brunt of the punishment for all those people who get away with rude subway behavior on a daily basis but... if she'd didn't do something wrong, this wouldn't have happened to her.
For those that are talking about the "bag grabbing" notion, agreed that, in theory, is wrong too. This is an assertion made by her, a person with arguably little credibility, and about as far from a "fact" as possible. If he did grab her bag without any justification, e.g., she physically assaulted him first (he would be justified in pulling her off the train to have her arrested if she assaulted him first - he is an officer of the court), then what he did was certainly very wrong. However, I'm not about to assume that was the case. After all, he's the one who had two corroborating witnesses and, clearly, she had no one to back up her version of the story... the only one the Voice chooses to voice (he's, no doubt, restricted by his position to a "no comment"). Remember, this is all her side of the story... if that's the most sympathetic version she can tell, imagine where the truth may actually lie.
BOTH of these losers should be locked in a pee pee smelly, no air conditioning subway car with Carrot Top and Clay Aiken. Whipped cream will be supplied. They will have to fend off the advances of Clay and Carrot Top. If they are rude again on the train, they have to lick whipped cream off Carrot or Clay.
Now THAT will teach them some damn manners!
Speaking of manners, let's throw panhandlers off the train and give them a begging post on the platform...that way we don't have to dodge the rude beggars who want our dollars for crack.
SUBWAY COMMUTERS UNITE! I have long had these same pet peeves about the subway...while i am glad the pole hugger got her comeuppance, i also dont think Mr DA acted very properly, considering his position.
I have to say, one of my biggest rush hour peeves (besides pole huggers and door blockers) is the "starfish effect" that occurs when everyone goes for the pole (assuming no one is leaning on it) and the mass of people "starfished" around it prevents the rest of us from moving ALL THE WAY IN to the cars.
I think the 2 main rules of etiquette should be: 1. look out for yourself and the person next to you, and 2. speak up. If there are 20 people trying to get in, and you have a lot of room around you, for crap's sake, close up the paper a bit, put your backpack on the floor between your feet, turn on an angle and make some space for others to get on! And if you open your mouth and say EXCUSE ME, it is funny how people will move for you! There is no reason to just push through people and not expect venomous stares! I think the reason people cluster at the door is fear of getting stuck on a crowded train at their stop...but if they would just be a more active participant in the whole subway riding process, things would go a lot more smoothly for everyone!
Next thing we need are walking lessons for the tourists on the street!
Thanks for the opportunity to vent!
This situation could have been handled very easily. If someone is bothering you, or worse, physically threatening you, get away from them. Nothing is worth getting hurt over, especially not a subway pole.
I suspect that what really happened is a whole 'nother version of the story, since the Village Voice is known to do the "protect the little guy" spin (as stated above). Furthermore, it sounds like she was the instigator of the exchange, and I suspect that she sought out media attention as retaliation for the event.
This morning, I almost fell down bacause of a pole-hogger but I still think that DA was way out of line. You can't go around having paople locked up just because they personally annoy you.
That's some BS. I've leaned on the pole before and it's only when there aren't that many people in the car. When people start piling in, I simply move aside and hold on. And I agree with Jen W as well, KEEP THE CLIPPERS AT HOME!!!
Why do we even need a pole. From an ergonomic standpoint (I'm just using big words to bolster my argument) isn't the pole in the middle of the aisles just a waste of space. I'm sure there are better ways to economize than having someone stand there while everyone else bunches at the door or for the handrails over people's seats. There's got to be a better way ... there's just gotta...
while i agree that pole hoggers are EVIL (my personal tactic is to smack my hand down to grab the pole near their head--i wear a ring on my index finger that clicks & usually makes them jump/realize they need to share), can we please quit the stereotypes about "old chinese ladies"? that's just dumb.
I wonder if, when she was in jail, she hogged the bench.
I think the pole huggers and those who try to enter while people are exiting should be beaten by those cops who have authority issues and need to exercise their demons. The rest of the infractions should receive a smaller retribution, but still some form of corporal punishment.
they should have both duked it out in jail for a night. I hate pole hoggers though. I also hate people who take your spot when you step aside just to let them pass. arggh.
I once got into an argument on the F train when with this lady (the Bergen St. stop--you know who you are) who started putting her elbow in my face in an attempt to get my attention after I told *someone else* (some guy in his late 30s or so) to turn sideways because he had his tall ass shoulder an inch from my face for no good reason (he had lots of room elsewhere). you know how annoying it is when people are all up in your space when it's not even that crowded on the train? anyway-- I can't believe some people will get into an argument over *other* people's personal space issues. totally retarded.
I also hate big backpack people in crowded trains who bump into you repeatedly. makes me want to make "please take your backpack off" bumper stickers.
A few biological things to consider about this incident. Ms. Black is noted as being 5'2. Unless you're that short (and I am) you might not know about the reality of being lil'. Someone that short usually has short arms. I personally can't reach the bars above the seats; I need to hold onto a center pole. Also, if you're short and you have short arms and you're holding onto the pole, you're going to be closer to the actual pole than someone who is tall and holding it higher and has some length to their arms to stand farther away from it. I'm not saying it's ok to hug the pole, but the spacial issues with a shortee may make it seem as though there's hugging or hogging going on when there's just holding. Also, I will protect my spot on a center pole pretty vigorously because, as I said, I can't reach the bars above the seats. I make sure to move deep into the car when it's crowded, but I position myself near one of the poles and let people go by if they want to hold onto the bar above the seat.
I'm in agreement with all the rude subway riders. BAN THEM ALL!! But since we can't, I'm amazed that no one suggested the following...saying "EXCUSE ME." Seems to work well for me. When it doesn't, then I become a jerk as well. Or we could all do well by taking Erikka's suggestion...move to another spot. Are we condoning the bad behavior indirectly? Probably, but aren't we all stressed enough as it is to try to pick a fight?
I must say though, my biggest pet peeve are the one's who try to get on the subway before people get off. SO DAMN ANNOYING!!
I think the reason for the pole is for us short people. I can reach the overhead bar, but it wears out my shoulder on a long ride. I'm 5'3".
I forgot about the people who lean against the wall-thingie by the door and let their ass hang over into the seating area. Nothing like ass near the eyeball! Or standing people who obliviously allow the corners of their (often hardcover) books to sway in the face of either the person standing next to them or the person seated in front of them. Both of these violators get a flathanded push to the offending object until it's out of eye-poking range.
Once some stupid fake-trendy bitch was standing less than a foot away from me and knitting on a crowded rush-hour F train! (Meaning she had an arm crooked around the pole) She gave me a dirty look when I assertively pushed the needles away from my face as the train was jerking around. I looked at her and said, "Are you insane?! You're gonna poke someone's eye out with those, genius!"
I forgot the neurotic (usually middle-aged and always) women who start dashing for the door while the train is still jerking through the tunnel. They squish people off balance and force people to lose hold of the bars/pole.
And able-bodied people who mosey into the train like they have all year and are completely oblivious that there are 10 other people behind them who are also trying to get on and get into position.
I'm not the most polite person, but I do try to constantly glance at my blind spot or just behind me to see if I'm in anyone's way--kind of like checking the rearview and side mirrors while driving.
I'm short too, dabbler, and I never get close to the pole when I'm holding on to it. I always make sure that I'm at least as far away from the pole as the lenth from my wrist to my elbow. That's another problem: people who stand less than that space away from the pole and when they sway, their stomachs brush against your fingers. It's kind of gross, and very annoying.
Sorry, that should have been "too close" and "length" in my previous post.
I understand the height issue, which obviously makes reaching the upper bars problematic, but physics would dictate that she need not press her ENTIRE body against the pole in order to stay balanced. A one-handed grip seems sufficient, two if the train is extra shaky.
Why hasn't anyone else mentioned that Aaron brings two witnesses willing to testify to the table, and no one (aside from the Village Voice) has come forward to back up her story?
Another thing - they keep describing this guy as a "big guy". I haven't seen any pictures of him, but 5'9" isn't exactly giant-sized.
I do agree that he probably went too far when he grabbed her bag off of the train, two wrongs don't make a right, yada yada yada, but it was probably a better option to get her off the train (his obvious intent) than grabbing her by the arm and dragging her.
And her reasoning that she was leaning against the pole because she had given her seat up to an old lady? Giving your seat up to Person A doesn't entitle you to be an asshole to everyone else on the train.
Brendan's correct. Ben - "in theory" it's wrong to take someone's bag? Nottage isn't the Lone Rasta Ranger - it's not his job to go out correcting the subway etiquette violations of other people.
It sounds to me like he made a fuss on the train, the girl ignored him, he stole her bag or arguably kidnapped her (depending on whether she was wearing the backpack when he pulled it off the train), and then called the police and used his position to have HER arrested. It's a shame she didn't have the presence of mind to counter-charge him at the scene with assault and theft, so maybe his fat ass could have spent some time in a cell, too.
Hopefully she'll bring him up on misconduct charges, at the very least. I'm sure his boss has chewed him out already.
And if I was a judge and some 37-year-old guy came in wearing dreadlocks, and announced himself as the prosecutor, I'd remand him to the barbershop around the corner: "No haircut, no crime."
I guess it's a good thing you're not in charge, huh?
How many times does times do people need to say this for it to stick:
two witnesses versus none.
It doesn't seem like he used his influence to get her extra punishment--it seems like she got what so many deserve and so few ever get.
Even though there was a weight and height deferential, Ms. Black received her due Justice for her rude behavior. I think you have to have extreme self restraint and be at your most socialized when riding the subway. You must immerse your self in these qualities before leaving your home. Definitely bring a book or listen to music and get into an air conditioned car. Even though it’s the cities most efficient transport it is at the same time the worst.
Please, women with strollers, wait until after rush hour. Are you taking your child to the office to help you file? Bike messengers should be thrown off immediately, preferably in the tunnel. Old Chinese ladies need to take access-a-ride. I am sure there is a Cantonese version. And, for all recent immigrants, please invest in deodorant. It’s part of being patriotic.
Not a single person blaming the MTA. For shame, people, taking it out on your fellow new yorkers! maybe if they ran more trains during rush hour, we wouldn't have so much overcrowding on the trains, nor straphanger tension. Sometimes the N doesn't come for 10+ minutes, and this is during rush hour! And who ever really believes "there's another train right behind this one"????
Perhaps she was able to gather no witnesses because, oh...she was arrested on the spot and taken to jail for thirty hours. And the article does not say that the witnesses contradict the big points in her story -- that he (a) escalated the confrontation by grabbing her bag and pulling her off the train, and (b) obscenely abused his authority by having the book thrown at her. Thirty hours is totally disproportionate to whatever happened if it was short of a violent physical assault.
Some of you people make me sick. Rude and inconsiderate behavior pisses me off too, but this kind of offense is why tickets were invented -- we don't have the resources to allow "officers of the court" to have people arrested at whim.
Does anyone here want to hog my pole? hehehehehhehehehehhheeeehehehhhehehehe
:^0
Yeah, ok, whatever, she might have been close to the pole. But, c'mon -- the arrest!?!?! The cops who followed through should be ashamed for themselves for being bullied by the guy.
All I can say is that if she can find a witness or two, she's probably got a decent Section 1983 suit on her hands.
Freaking Charles Hynes's office for defending this guy. He should be out on his fat ass.