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It wasn't enough for Disney and Giuliani to clean up Times Square and the rest of the city: The Southern Baptists want to put their religious sheen into New Yorkers' lives. Gothamist has to agree with Tien Mao, who says "one group of fools campaigning for religious conversions, we don't need two" (the first group being Jews for Jesus, natch). While Gothamist is weary of sad and upsetting NY stories, we understand that the grit and grime are part of the New York we love. We just think that grit and grime should be akin to the crazy goings on we saw at Night Court with Judge Harry Stone, Bull, and that randy ADA Dan Fielding!
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I love this site and read it several times a day, but I really feel like lately Christians have been unfairly targeted and ridiculed. I have heard someone say before that you can claim any religion -- Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, and respect will be given you, but say you are a Christian and all respect goes out the window for your beliefs. Oh, well, so much for religious tolerance by the supposedly open-minded New Yorkers.....
Jews For Jesus vs. The Southern Baptists.
I smell pay-per-view special. Maybe the winner can square off against the Scientologists.
but paul, both have jesus on their side!! and there is no doubt that both will pray to the lord.
The core message of tolerance is "you have your beliefs, I have my beliefs, we co-exist." The core message of fundamentalist religions is "join us or you're going to hell." That's not tolerant, and it's hard to co-exist with.
I think it's unfortunate for moderate Christians that the fundamentalists have taken over the Christian banner and are out there representing hatred and intolerance as Christian values.
It also brings up a point about evangelism. At the core it's a battle to gain members. The Jews and Buddhists typically aren't evangelistic, which makes them not pushy. And thus more tolerant. And thus less likely to be ridiculed.
I think the evangelistic Christians can only expect intolerance, because that's what they are preaching. It goes both ways. For the moderate Christians, they are caught in the middle, which is too bad.
PK.
Good point, PK. If I won the lottery I'd like to start a foundation dedicated to publicly clarifying the differences between different Christian religions, denominations, and sects. The media in general tend to ignore these important distinctions.
Lots of talk about tolerance in NYC, but it's often not extended to Christians. People seem to be quick to judge (and throw names at) Christians yet preach openmindedness toward other religions.
What would the tone and choice of words be in a post about a group of Buddhists performing a similar activity? Would a group of Hindus be called "fools" for spreading their beliefs? And I'd be most interested to see if the spiritual beliefs of Native American groups are ever bashed in progressive NYC. (I won't hold my breath.)
PK, Buddhists aren't evangelistic? What have the Beastie Boys and Richard Gere been doing all these years?
P.S.
Good point, Larry. Christianity has so many different denominations that it's hard to keep track of them all. A few surly ones can really give Christians a bad name.
what would brian boitano do in this situation?
Coolfer, point very well taken. There are evangelists and fundamentalists in every group, including the umbrella of Buddhism, and even Atheism. So I agree we can't really say "all Christians are evangelistics, and all Buddhists aren't." (The book "The True Believer" is an unflinching primer on mass movements.)
I'll further add that I was very disappointed when a few months ago I went looking for a low key group to meditate with, and I found a Buddhist group that was just like a fundamentalist church, but instead of saying Jesus they said Buddha. If I wanted that, I'd just go hang out with the Southern Baptists.
So how about this--what counts on an individual basis is how people actually act in terms of evangelism and tolerance. What counts on the level of public perception is how "members of the group" behave, on average.
PK.
I understand what you're saying about fundamentalist Christians being pushy, but why aren't people taking up a cause against fundamental Muslims, if they want a religion to knock? Fundamental Muslims are far more dangerous than Christians, and although they aren't as out-in-the-open they'd rather kill us all than innocently preach at us with the hopes of us going to heaven.
People! People! I think we are straying away from the real point of this post, which is; Night Court was a fuckin' awesome show!
Christians campaigning for memebers is like a telemarketer ringing my number, which some religions have resorted to (I've recieved calls and not lets forget the transient type).
But you have to admit that the religions that don't promote revieve the most sincere members. They are in it because they want to be, they fought for it and weren't just back from a weekend retreat.
In my eyes that earns them respect.
PK, interesting starting point. However, a distinction deserves to be made between someone who likes to think you're going to -insert trepidation-inducing netherworld of your choice- and acting upon such a belief in ways compatible with a free society, and submission by means unpalatable.
The ways and means of evangelism are important - after all, we derive our rights from a more secular belief, but belief nonetheless.
"Fundamental Muslims are far more dangerous than Christians, and although they aren't as out-in-the-open they'd rather kill us all than innocently preach at us with the hopes of us going to heaven."
Innocently preach? You forget the crusades of yore and the modern day version that is being carried out in the middle east right now.
S.,
What I meant was, Christians are preaching at us with the hopes of us getting to heaven; Muslims would rather kill us and are thus the group we should be concerned with rather than all this constant bashing of Christians. Sorry about the confusion.
But you have to admit that the religions that don't promote revieve the most sincere members. They are in it because they want to be, they fought for it and weren't just back from a weekend retreat.
This is not actually borne out by current trends in the growth of religious movements. Fervently evangelical religions, such as Pentacostal Christians and Wahaabi Muslims, are actually on the rise and those with more "laid back" non-evangelical attitudes, say Anglicanism, are on the decline. One might say that unless one is sincere enough about your belief to want to share it with others, then how since can you really be?
As for the comments about New Yorkers bashing Christians more than other religions, I'm not sure that's entirely true, either. New York is a rather secular place, and while I think many people here have negative views about religious people of all faiths, they are rarely so rude as to be negative about religion to your face, if they know you are an adherent. All the more reason to be upfront about your religious belief, if you have any.
Last point. Think about evangelical Christians this way: if 1) you truly believed that non-believers endure eternal damnation after death and 2) you had knowledge of the only escape from such a fate, then 3) you would have to be quite the jackass to keep your mouth shut about it. Now apply the same logic to those gentle Buddhists who feel no compulsion to let you in on their secret path to enlightenment.
kate, don't you think that your view that christians are only trying to get us to heaven and muslims are trying to kill us is a bit of a western/american/christian-centric point of view? i guess you said "fundamental" muslims, but i'm scared of all fundamentalists, not just muslims.
I feel like if someone genuinely believes something -- no matter what it is -- and is willing to step up to the plate and voice that belief they shouldn't be bashed for it. As a Christian, I don't know that I always have the guts to do that. A tenant of many religions is to evangelize and to say someone else shouldn't do that because it annoys you is to say the other person isn't able to fully practice their religion.
It is great we can talk about this is an open, civilized manner! Gothamist is a great place!
Wait. So when fundie Christians get in your face, it's protected free speech, but when Tien calls those Christians fools, it's intolerant bashing? C'mon, people... as bashing goes, calling someone a fool is hardly worth this much heat. If I got upset every time someone called me that, I'd never leave my house.
If someone has the right to call me a hell-bound sinner, I have equal right to call that person a fool--or does the Constitution now only protect the religious?
actually will, that practice of evangelizing your religion is what many people find wrong with religion itself. stating that its "a (tenet) of many religions" doesnt make it any less annoying. when people start force-feeding their religions down other peoples mouths, theyre treading on those peoples own beliefs. theyre not filling empty cups.
when fundie Christians get in your face...
When was the last time a fundimentalist actually got up in your face? Confrontations on the streets of NYC are uncommon, but the only thing I've seen that comes close to what you're describing are the Black Israelites in Times Square.
In this city, it's a pretty simple trick to live an exclusively secular life and never be bothered by religiousity. Certainly simpler than the reverse proposition.
Todd, I'll grant you that in most cases, you can walk past a street preacher as quickly as you can a clipboard-wielding Greenpeace volunteer, but that doesn't change my point.
I've tolerated subway-car evangelists, gritting my teeth and waiting for the next stop so I could switch cars if the preachers didn't. And as much as the preachers annoy me, I'm happy they have the right to speak. Equally, Tien's comments might annoy some people, but he has the right to vocalize his opinion.
hey dietsch, ever ride the ACE or L in the morning? theres two people i thoroughly enjoyed riding the subway with when i used to commute from nj. one was a woman who used to preach gospel out loud during the entire ride (and even as she walked along the platform). and the other was a guy who preached too, except entirely in spanish. gosh, those were fun days...
i'd be more worried about ky-otes.
Subway preachers. They only came to mind as I released the "post" button. True, true.
I'm not for "getting in your face" but the reason Christians tell others (I rarely do but feel I should) - is like blinking your headlights if a cop is around the curve. I believe in eternity and heaven and hell. So, the bridge is out up ahead. I know that if you keep driving you will drive off the end. I also know that you don't want to hear it. So do I tell you or just let you die? I feel like I should tell you. If you decide to keep on driving anyway, that's your decision and I do respect that. Likewise, I don't get extra credit if you decide to heed my advice.
That's kinda the gist of it.
Any resemblance to evangelism in the above is entirely coincidental and unintentional.
see...there it is. you just did it. trying to peddle your beliefs, even if it is to "warn" the pagans of the supposed holy christian bridge up ahead. some of us dont believe in heaven and hell. some of us believe in other things, but you dont see us asking you to worship the high holy llama. the llama is for us and nobody else.
Why is saying what I think "peddling my beliefs"?
I respect your right to believe as you do. I respect your right to say what you believe.
having a belief is in your mind. when that is transferred to your mouth and directed specifically towards the ears of another with differing ideals, thats when issues arise.
The swallow may fly south with the sun, or the house martin or the plover seek warmer hot lands in winter, yet these are not strangers to our land.
uh..."swallow may fly south with the sun"...have you been watching a lot of "Kung Fu" lately, little grasshopper?
the former Mormon missionary in me wants to say, "bring it on!"
but actually, the Times Square street preaching I don't miss all that much are those Blacks are The Real Jews guys who dress up like they're heading to a Renaissance Faire. They used to pick fights with white folk who'd stop and listen. For a while, they were at Hunter, but they seem to have disappeared. Oh, and their leader Yahweh ben Yahweh went to jail for murder in FL or something.
Oy vey.
sorry, can't stand it.
issues? Why would you have issues just because I said I believe in heaven and hell? I don't have issues because you say you don't.
I did not state any of my beliefs in that statement, that is what is called an analogy.
I do not believe my high holy person is a bridge.
and it's monty python, not kung fu
Whatever happens, I just hope the USA stays safe and free for people of all different beliefs. Frankly with Bush, Cheney, and Ashcroft running the show, it feels like we're heading for a fundamentalist Christian state. Is this a country divided or what?
bottom line is - all of us really do want world peace -
We just don't agree on whether you get that by pumelling someone or sweet talking them!