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In keeping with the spate of stories about the about the suddenly too hot weather Gothamist wonders what propels some men to leer and say, "Hey gorgeous" to a woman walking on the street. It's not like the woman will stop and say, "Here's my number." A suckerpunch would be more likely. Is it lack of impulse control? Perhaps, but even that seems generous when a guy will stop, make the woman pass him while he look her up and down, front and back. As if trudging to the subway in the humid weather isn't work enough, but street harrassment in the city will be at fever pitch as woman de-layer their clothing and wear summer clothing. For this reason, Gothamist is considering in investing in a burkha. And will be brushing up on the tae kwan do skills.
The Street Harrassment Project, is commited to "fight street harassment of women by men in all of its forms with our ultimate goal of having a society where women can go wherever we want, when we want, dress the way we choose and be able to express ourselves, including sexually, in freedom and in safety." TheWar Zone is a documentary that follows the female filmmaker asking men why they street harass woman.
A bizarre incident in New Jersey (yes, insert your own NJ joke here) arrest of a man who harassed a woman by repeatedly lifting his T-shirt, exposing a bra underneath, and rubbing his chest.
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I foresee....I foresee..a long thread here....
Sounds like a great idea, so men will suddenly turn their back on one of the most primal urges to known to man.
And the day that happens, women will start complaining that no one finds them attractive anymore.
Sheesh. I swear you can never win.
I hate that shit. If I have the energy, I reply to with a smart-ass comment and wait for the "Bitch!" that inevitably follows. *sigh*
Nice to oversimplify the issue. As someone who has annoyingly complained about dudes not finding me attractive, let's put me put it this way: When I'm walking to work, having some guy stick his head or walk into my personal space and say, "Hey, sexy," is not my idea of being found attractive. If I'm at a bar, fine, it's appropriate/understood there. It's a primal urge for me to punch the jerk in the stomach, but I'm refraining.
jen, you are very attractive.
um, the street harrassment project website is out of control.
I think that you would be hard-pressed to find any woman who equates getting "Hey, Mami/You sexy"'ed on the street (for the crime of simply having the gall to wear a sleeveless shirt in the 100 degree weather) with confirming her self-worth. You sound like a creep. A short creep.
I dont think there is anything wrong with trying to flirt with a woman on the street, I also dont think most women would mind. The thing is that its how you do it. Invading her personal space and hitting her with slimy line making her uncomfortable is not the way to go. I dont think women hate flirting, what they hate is feeling threatend. I love talking to women but you have to let them know you have some class.The thing is that some of the creepy guys you woman complain about get girls that way!!!! Maybe the women who fall for these guys should shoulder SOME of the blame because if they did not fall for these guys it wouldn't ruin it for all the real men .
I'd like to conduct a test: Place two guys on the street: One is a super-fine model and the other is a construction-working whale. Each uses the exact same lingo to the women passing by, be it "Hey sexy" or gives them the eyes-upeyes-down twice-over.
Now, my theory is that (much the same as it would be with men) while the women's reactions would not be altogether positive to either, the plug-ugly would generate a great deal more compliants than the model. (Though, he'd probably generate some as well). But, if the complaints did not equal out, it would still prove the same thing: Women are not so much offended by the action as they are by who is taking the action.
Granted, this is a theory which I have not the resources to properly test.
You can call me a bastard all you want, but the truth is you're not going to stop the catcalls. Guys will yell catcalls at anything in a skirt and pair of heels, and you know why? Because it works. Do you think if it didn't they'd keep doing it? It's like the carpetbombing technique, try it on as many women possible and hope one bites.
The problem is, when you get the once-over, it's hard to know if you should feel flattered or threatened...walking alone and minding your own business past a crowd of big sweaty guys making obscene gestures, it's easy to feel threatened. Because sometimes it doesn't stop there.
I don't guess anyone remembers that Puerto Rican day parade a few years ago? Because I sure do. I'm sure those guys would say they were just "flirting" too.
I really do wish I could just smile and take it as a compliment every time a guy gave me the eye. And sometimes I can. But being a woman means you're also thinking about how fast you could get away if he tries something more.
I"ll be the devil's advocate here.
I don't practice this form of hitting on girls (mostly because my gf would kill me) myself. But to some women and men, and this is really a cultural issue, it IS a form of flirting. Probably not with the basic white bread suburban america set but for some.
It's hard to discuss without getting racial. But in most hispanic/south american culture, it's completely ok to flirt with strangers on the street this way. I see girls end up giving their numbers to guys who do this on the street. So it's not really fair to call it harassment. Not when some girls gives a coy smile to guys saying "nice legs baby" or my favorite... "mmm mmm mmm all that jelly...!"
Obviously the problem happens when the dudes give these compliments to the wrong women (suburban white girls, or twinkie asians, or asians etc). And some guys definately cross the line into harrassment.
But you have to admit it's not easy to distinguish harassment and flirting when some girls smile at you and some girls break out with their mace for the same comment.
I'd like to say the guys should probably be better at distinguishing who'd actually go for those comments, but of course most of these guys aren't too bright to begin with.
What's my point? I'm just going to enjoy the hot NYC weather and keep my thoughts to myself.
today, anil dash explains the origins of this phenomenon.
I agree with the mad scientist's generalized, untested theory since that also applies to the bar pick-up - a girl would probably be more receptive to cute guy hitting on her, etc. We live in a looks-based shallow society. I guess leering you can't do much about, though it's unnerving, but getting in someone's face is stepping over the line. Hot or not, I want to knee the jerk who tries to intimidate with his "flirting," but as you're usually harassed when you're on the street along, you can't fight back and you feel really small. And I do take comfort in thinking back to the part of Thelma & Louise when they torch the perverted truck driver's tanker. Hot.
It is also a cultural thing, but again, to bring up the Puerto Rican Day parade example - I think the problem with street harassment is that it can get out of control soon. I think that once some guys feel they have the carte blanche to leer and make comments, then they feel they can go further with touching. I don't think I'm a prude, but I'm not really a Girl-Gone-Wild, and when some whitebread asshole frat boy tried to grab me on the street in Las Vegas, it was not fun and it was not flirting.
Jen,
so I won't see you in a girls gone wild NYC video?
Well...only the underground one on the 'net.
My two cents:
Not that my two cents are worth two cents, as a man who works with ALL men who are equally distributed between gay and straight, I just want to point out that men do not in spacifically objectify women. Men objectify, PERIOD.
I'm not saying it is right. I'm just saying that no organization, or even a revolution in social standards, is ever going to stop men from being men. But brushing up on your tae kwan do sounds like a fun and practical idea.
Also, to toot my own horn, when I leer, I do it with grace and subtlety. Until I get drunk of course.
as far as any fratboy asshole laying an unwelcome hand on you, two words: pepper spray.
whenever any shithead yells "nice tits, mami!" at me (and alas, this happens quite often), i give them a huge smile and yell "thanks! i grew them myself!". this has yet to let me down.
What bothers me the most every time I get harassed by guys on in my neighborhood is the idea that it really is not a form of flattery, for a couple reasons. First of all, these guys make comments to EVERY female who walks by over the age of 12, so it's not that I'm particularly special. Second, most of the time they barely even look at me - when I hear "you're beautiful, I love you" I can't help but wonder how they know I'm beautiful if they've barely glanced at me as I quickly walk by, and how can they possibly fall in love with me that quickly? They make these comments because they have not made the effort to notice that the majority of women do not have a positive response to it, and it's a reflex which they have not bothered to exercise any control over. And I have no respect for lack of self control, especially when it affects other people.
I'm going to have to agree with eebmore. As a male, I've been victimized by guys hitting on me, and I'm not gay. Sure, I'm not the worst dresser and people call me a pretty boy, but when you tell someone that you don't swing that way, they should take it as a big fat, "No."
I was in a big national chain computer store on 5th Ave. This salesdude whispered something as I walked past him with my girlfriend. I thought I heard "Sweet Ass."
Two minutes later with my girlfriend two isles over:
Him: "Hey sweet ass."
Me: "What?"
Him: "Is that your sister?"
Me: "No, that's my GIRLFRIEND."
Him: "So, do you like to play?"
Me: "I only play with her."
Him: "You sure? Everybody likes to play."
Me: "No."
I grabbed my girlfriend and hightailed it out that mofo. I still shop there though.
The point I guess I'm trying to make is that boys will be boys. Some guys are just inherently greaseballs.
Eh, I feel at times there is an element of physical intimidation involved so I can't really excuse the behavior as blanket "Men will men."
This may be percieved as unnecessarily obtuse, but what it the street harrassment project's take on street harassment of men on men? Why is this ignored in the street harrassment project's "statement of purpose"? It seems pointedly gender spacific.
Am I being too pc?
I don't know why, but this actually burns my bonnett a little. It feels as though they have completly missed the psychological root of the aggresive male behavior by exclusively percieving the issue as a male/female conflict ... and consequently addressing the issue on purely male/female lines.
Is their actual concern street harassment or male dominance?
what was I thinking???
sorry for my earlier rant.
I was all cranky and militant because the heat had woken me up a 4 am.
I'm usually not that obnoxious.
To Sam, the Devil's Advocate:
I think I have some idea of what you're trying to say, but as a Black woman, I know first hand that alot of the catcalling Black creeps on the street will say shit to me they will not say to the white girls in front of me, even if I am wearing jeans and she's got on a mini.
It may be part of the "culture," but really it's an example of Black mens' lack of self-worth and fucked-up sense of entitlement over Black women. Any positive responses garnered by this type of behavior (which Jen is dead-on in saying is intimidation by and large) is equally fucked up.
I could draw parallels to all the stuff Black women let Black men get away and while this may be somewhat of "cultural" phenomenon (although I know that every community/race/ethnic group has it's own "rules of the game"), I see it as a more of an unfortunate manifestation of lack of self-esteem than a proud tradition.
Eebmore, I understand your questioning about male-male harassment, and it's certainly an issue - that's why sexual harassment laws in the workplace are broadening to include all kinds of harassment, include same-sex. Unfortunately the story is going to be about male-female harassment first and foremost because people simply don't like talking male-male anything (see the post on the Supreme Court striking down sodomy laws) and the more talked about problem is male-female harassment because it's more prevalent I think.
And I don't think you were being aggressive in your comments. Part of why the debate is split between men and women is because most men have never experienced those kinds of comments from a woman's point of view - not really a fault of their own. Probably when they say "hey gorgeous" and smile, it's from a distance in a lighter tone - not with other purposes in mind - and it's truly admiring. But I think other women would agree it's not always admiring when we hear it - it's suggestive and loaded.
The experiment that mad scientist wants to conduct (good-looking vs ugly)has already been done in a similar way and his theory has been proven correct.
The test consisted of two groups of women who were each shown videos of an office environment where both good-looking and "ugly" men made passes or flirting type comments at women in the office. The groups of women were then to determine if they concidered the comments sexual harassement or innocent flirting.
Each group saw a video with the same conversation but one group had a "good looking" guy vs the other groups "ugly" guy. Also each group saw a mix between "ugly" and "good looking"
As you may suspect the sexual harrasement label was applied by both groups to the "ugly" guy far more often then the "good looking" guy even though they said the exact same statements.
i don't, and none of my guy friends, do the catcall thing so the whole "guys will be guys" thing is kind of dumb. don't buy it.
I have been sexually assaulted, beaten, fondled, & intimidated by men who in their evil, sick minds thought it was okay to do this to a then-11 year-old little girl. I am now 20 & while I'm certainly no feminist, I'm very aware of people hitting on me in a threatening way & I try not to seem open or inviting to that type. No one asks for this to happen. It doesn't matter if a woman walks down the street in a skirt & heels...the point is, if she feels threatened in any way, it IS harrassment under the pretense of flattery.
I've heard the "Wow, you're fine, I love you" lines, I've had the leers, the stares, the ones who will put themselves in my path so I have to walk around them. I've had my boobs fondled, had my bum & crotch fondled & I wouldn't call any of it fun or innocent flirting...believe me. Sometimes the harrassment took on a darker, more hostile & ugly turn. There were repeated rape attempts, all of which I narrowly escaped (I was raped violently as a pre-teen, as I said, but the other stuff happened when I was about 14 years old). There were times on the street when for no apparent reason, men & boys would call me "bitch", "whore", "ugly", & make lewd comments about my body, loudly.
I don't mind innocent flirting & fun & witty banter...if that's all it is and nothing more. I don't mind off-color jokes...I have a dirty mind & bawdy sense of humor myself. As long as it is not disrespectful of women, ethnic groups, or the handicapped, it's fine with me. But I'm sorry if I don't agree that this is anything but harrassment/intimidation, whatever you choose to call it. There's innocent flirting...and then there's inappropriate behavior. There's an admiring gaze...and then there's a lusty leer. There's a friendly "hi"...and then there's a "Damn! Look at the (insert: ass, titties, etc.) on her!" It pisses me off, although I'm a young pretty co-ed, that does not mean that I want to be constantly stared at & leered at & threatened & subjected to bullshit if I don't reciprocate with my name & number.
I understand & agree with what most of you said. And I have this to say: My body is my own. The only other person entitled to touch me or look at me that way is my significant other. I don't care if I'm in short shorts & sending out signals like a bitch in heat. I don't care if you're good-looking or ugly. I don't care if you can't take your eyes off me. You'd better stay away & keep your nasty comments to yourself. That's how I feel about this. Thanks to all of you, male & female, for talking about this issue.
To those who were saying that male-on-male street harrassment should be as much of a concern as female harrassment --
Of course, in an ideal world, no one should be harrassed by anyone else in public at all. But the truth of the matter is that male-on-female harrassment is both a) several orders of magnitude more frequent and 2) exists within a context of near-perpetual male-on-female sexual assaults that simply has no equivalent with male-on-male situations (outside of a supermax prison, perhaps).
A guy getting a "nice ass!" from another guy walking down the street probably won't be much more than annoyed; a girl getting the same treatment will be annoyed *and* trying to figure out whether she might actually be attacked. That, and the fact that it is a large part of American culture already makes it a more pressing issue than male-on-male street harassment, as terrible as that is, too.
To those who were saying that male-on-male street harrassment should be as much of a concern as female harrassment --
Of course, in an ideal world, no one should be harrassed by anyone else in public at all. But the truth of the matter is that male-on-female harrassment is both a) several orders of magnitude more frequent and 2) exists within a context of near-perpetual male-on-female sexual assaults that simply has no equivalent with male-on-male situations (outside of a supermax prison, perhaps).
A guy getting a "nice ass!" from another guy walking down the street probably won't be much more than annoyed; a girl getting the same treatment will be annoyed *and* trying to figure out whether she might actually be attacked. That, and the fact that it is a large part of American culture already makes it a more pressing issue than male-on-male street harassment, as terrible as that is, too.
Look it's simple. If a woman's attracted to a man she doesn't mind him looking and giving off signals. But these are FEW AND FAR BETWEEN. I can't relate to testosterone. I mean a woman can be horny and have intense desire and experience wonderful orgasms but the combination of hormones in the average woman doesn't turn her into a slurping out-of-control slimeball fuckwad who thinks he's god's gift to women 24/7. Get with the program...you aren't capable to be even god's gift to warthogs. And what's up with one of the signers above who idiotically suggests the lechers are some woman's fault "because someone falls for them..." HUH? Are you kidding? More idiocy. You stare relentlessly at me on the bus. I hate it and it's obvious I hate it. But blame me because some female has the hots for you? Even with all the crap women have to endure in the world, I'd still rather be reincarnated as a female than a male. Because men are made stupid and simple by the testosterone that plagues them. I pity you and at the same time hope your dick falls off you utter morons on the street and elsewhere who lech lech lech and don't get get get that we we we don't don't don't appreciate it.
P.S. I would lurve to place some of these hetero lechers in the gay district and let 'em experience some one on one attention from men who have the hots for them and practice the same kind of objectification. I betcha they'd run screaming from it.
Re: all the fratboy asshole vitriol. Why do so many of the above commentators feel such a strong urge to single out that particular offender? There are plenty of men of all races, religions, and affiliations guilty of this sort of behavio. Focusing on one stereotype makes you sound like you're more interested in making an unclever jab than actually addressing a society-wide issue. One person actually brings up the Puerto Rican Day Parade, mumbles something about cultural differences, then goes on to rail against frat guys, apparently lacking the intellectual capacity to see the disconnect. In the story which inspired all this commentary, the last example mentioned is a bra-wearing freak in Jersey. Again, probably not currently a member of a fraternity. Or maybe he is, but even if that's the case, his issues run a little deeper than a psychological overdependence on a privileged upbringing. Anyway, this is not an attempt to portray fraternity members as victims--which I'm sure will be several peoples' dismissive reaction to this post, if anyone bothers. It's more a request that people address all aspects of a problem, instead of confining themselves to unimpressive, easy, targeted rants, and generally coming across as morons.