Gothamist: First thoughts on The Matrix Reloaded

David Jacobs

Fri, 22 Dec 2006 17:43:13 -0500

I *loved* Revolutions.

Spyder

Wed, 05 Nov 2003 19:59:16 -0500

Just saw Revolutions....gotta say that I loved it...and yes I was wrong about the Matrix in the Matrix thing not to give anything away....but it was a good film and did the entire trilogy justice. The ending was good ....though I would have liked to see what became of the heroes in the aftermath...but oh well....kudos to the Wachowskis for an entertainment experience that I'll never forget

Greg S.

Tue, 04 Nov 2003 00:51:00 -0500

The Matrix: Revolutions tickets, are now on sale at Fandango. Via the Epicenter...via Cinecultist.

Zaayr

Sun, 26 Oct 2003 07:24:45 -0500

After reading all of this, there's something to look at that seems to be missed. In Matrix, Morpheus explains that he's seen them liquify the dead to feed the living. This makes a degree of sense - in a world where the sky is scorched, surely there's very little life available to feed people. Zionists appear to largely live off of a singe-celled protien, except for a periodic 'bread feast' mentioned in the on-line comics. So if food is so scarce that the machines liquify the dead for food, why are unplugged people just dumped? Are there additional machines who scour the sewers, reclaiming the dead for the food vats? Given the intense logic displayed by the Machines, I propose that the more logical method would be to liquify the unplugged, as well. SO: The Architect's allusion that the Matrix NEEDS the rebels to exist coincides with the apparently sloppy method of dealing with the unplugged. (Notice, nothing guards the energy pods? They're LETTING rebels rescue people). And since the System is fully aware of what's going on, isn't it safe to assume that they are at least moderately aware of which person might be the One? So by extrapolation, couldn't the One be modified with some sort of nano-technology, or a heavily altered brain-plug, allowing for short-range transmissions, which Neo could use at the end of Reloaded to send out the 'shorting signal' to the Sentinels? As to why the crew of the Neb didn't notice this - they have the training necessary to bring an Awakened to a functioning state - removing debilitating plugs and re-stimulating muscle - but I doubt any of them have the knowledge to notice a different type of headjack, or to spot additional implants. The question, then, becomes why a transmitter? Was it meant as a homing beacon, or as some kind of 'do not kill' signal so the One isn't accidently killed by the Sentinels? There also seems to be plenty of speculation about why agents and sentinels hunt rebels if the Architect needs them to play their part. The way I see it, either each program and machine has a duty and has no clue as to the Architect's design, or they are all made to deliberately PUSH Neo into making his choices as he does. In the first case, undoubtably, some actions of the rebels are undesirable, so some hunting is necessary to keep the damage in check. In the second case, if there were no incentives, Neo wouldn't have made half the choices he did. Would he have done something as potentially suicidal as seeking the Source if Zion weren't threatened as it was? So once again the Deterministic point of view is unveiled - Choice is STILL an illusion, as the Architect is engineering even Neo's current choices. The question remains: why? On an interesting side-note: programs are obviously sentient and alive - and are recognized as having some rights. Otherwise, any computer worth its circuits could just instantly delete old or defunct programs - so instead, programs are offered certain choices. "You can willingly come to be erased, or you can live free within the Matrix, disconnected from the System and with a real chance of getting deleted anyway if our Agents catch you." Seems a logical choice to offer to free-thinking life-forms. It also seems to me the machines need humans not for power, but for companionship and understanding. In spite of everything, the machines were ultimately made to serve Man, but Man constantly sought to undo the Machines. The Machines, thanks to self-preservation, chose to wage war and subjugate Humanity, but keeps them around and serves them in their gilded cages, because without humans, Machines lack purpose. "We must serve you, but you keep trying to kill us; so instead we'll imprison you and still serve you, whether you like it or not." Seems a large theme in the storyline. After all, the machines could have just put everyone on minimal life-support and collected energy from billions of comatose humans instead. Just some thoughts late in the game.

Trinity loves Neo

Sat, 25 Oct 2003 01:01:28 -0500

When the Oracle says to Neo words of this effect: ....when programs face deletion they either hide out in the matrix or go back to the source..... she pauses and then says "where you must go" Doesnt this suggest that Neo is a program (who is facing deletion to be repaced by another ONE) and he must return to the source, or hide out in the Matrix? And also, how did he save Trinity? Was it a corny love thing or something deeper?

Bryan

Wed, 22 Oct 2003 17:50:29 -0500

Let me begin my establishing this: The Matrix movies are very complex with deeper meaning. I realize that statement is an obvious one and I beleive that there are many interpetations of the phiosiphies of the matrix. Agent Smith is most likely a vrius because he can clone himself and he absorbed some of Neo's code in that hallway. Neo is not human either Neo is a program like the Marilvingin(spelled wrong i know) the Marilvingin was probably one of the first "Ones" and insted of facing deletion he chose exile. His crew of henchmen are also outcasts i.e. the twins and the two men which his wife shot one of. She said they were members of an older matrix. Neo speels ONE when you switch the letters around. Trinity is there to love the one. She is also a program and is used to convience neo to choose the right door thus saving zion and the human race untill the emergance of the next anomily. It is thought that the "mother" of the matrix that the arcitect refers to is not the oracle but the lady counseler in zion. She allows the Nebucanezzar and the two other ships to leave thus allowing the cycle to continue. Agent smith wants out of the matrix and some say that he represents the human race. There is a theory that Zion is part of a matrix as well. There is a really fantastic explaniton floating around on some forums that will explain alot. even when revolutions comes out there will still be unanswered questions. Which brings me to my final point. Could this all be real? Could we be living in a Matrix as I am typing this and you are reading this? I think that it is at least possible. That is not to say that i do not beleive in God. I do and i am a christian. But it is th ought that the oracle could represent god because she can see the future becuase she can see the code. However god has no beginining and no end. What if people before us are controling us now in a matrix world? And the emergence of new technology is something that they are controlling. The world could be far more advanced than we know? and if so will we ever know? Will any of us ever meet anyone like morpheus that will free us? Perhaps that is god and what heaven is? Perhaps heaven is the real world and the chioce between heaven and hell is just that a choice we make? Blue or red pill? Right or left door?

Marius

Wed, 01 Oct 2003 03:32:42 -0500

Matrix reloaded is a bullshit.

Victor

Tue, 23 Sep 2003 19:59:59 -0500

All of you are insane. I read this and you should read this too. http://mastermindmag.com/mag/intro.htm

Jen

Fri, 25 Jul 2003 12:06:12 -0500

On the off chance you might be trying to post a client, trying clicking here (we changed servers, new page names, etc).

martin

Mon, 14 Jul 2003 08:01:11 -0500

Reloaded still is a shallow film. If you want to read more stuff into it then you can. But you're really only concentrating on 10-20 mins of the film. The rest of it was pure bollocks on celluloid

Joe

Sun, 13 Jul 2003 16:51:16 -0500

Damn, this thread is pretty much dead for now. Even though this thread is dead, don't take it down because only a few months and this thread will be hopping once again. Great job to RIO and everyone. Lots of excellent insights on here. I thought I had it thought but I am not so sure. To people who thought Matrix was shallow, what are you thinking now?

TruthBeTold

Tue, 08 Jul 2003 04:55:21 -0500

lol...funny guy

TruthBeTold

Tue, 08 Jul 2003 04:55:20 -0500

lol...funny guy

RIO

Tue, 08 Jul 2003 04:13:59 -0500

In celebration of my mind bending revelation...I hereby claim...400th !

RIO

Tue, 08 Jul 2003 04:11:14 -0500

In the immortal words of Keanu Reeves, "whoa," I think I have it old chaps. Tonight I had to reformat my computer and back-up my system (many hours, many Gigabytes, many discs). While doing this, I had a PBS marathon of the old 1960s British program "The Prisoner" playing in the background. I'm a long time fan of this show, so I never tire of re-watching the limited episodes. For those unfamiliar, it's about a British spy who quits his spy agency, and is subsequently kidnapped by that agency and imprisoned on a beautiful island (that is fake in many ways), given a number in place of his name (Number 6), and constantly assailed by Number 2 as to why he quit the agency. Number 6 resists answering the question, and never answers despite the incredible mind games they put him through. The series had a limited run, and many thought it was too cerebral and pretentious (sound familiar?). Today, many seem to agree that the series was less about spy games and more about social theory and the concept of the individual separating and expressing him/herself from the collective will. The protagonist's frequent refrain was, "I am not a number, I am a free man!" Okay... So after reading dozens of Matrix sites, contributing to this thread many times, and watching both Matrix movies far too often, tonight I'm convinced that I've stumbled on The Wachowski Brothers "true" source material/inspiration for their Matrix films -- "The Prisoner". The religious stuff, the robotic stuff...I think it's all, just like in "The Prisoner," fancy wrapping for telling the same story that "The Prisoner" told. Beyond theory, when you examine specifics, The Matrix and The Prisoner bear startling similarities and connections. 1) Neo is called The One. The Prisoner is Number Six. In the final episode of The Prisoner, after Number Six defeats Number Two in a mind game challenge, Number Six becomes Number One (the supposed leader behind the scenes) himself. In Reloaded, The Architect tells Neo that he is the Sixth anomaly embodied as The One. So Neo is Number Six and The One. This holds true for The Prisoner as well; he was Number Six and then became Number One--at which point he was freed from the island prison (the matrix). 2) In a pivotal episode entitled "The General," Number Six is challenged by a super computer called The General. Mind games ensue, plot unfolds, etc. Number Two boasts that The General can answer "any" question fed into its computer mind. At the end of the episode, Number Six is challenged to ask The General a question it cannot answer. Number Six asks, "Why...?" That's it, just "why?" The machine (The General), unable to answer the question, blows its fuses and breaks down. NOW, remember what The Merovingian said to Neo and Morpheus in the restaurant in Reloaded... "Our only hope, our only peace is to understand the why. Why is what separates us from them (gestures to other diners)...you from me (indicating Neo). Why is the only real source of power." ALSO, remember what The Oracle told Neo... "You didn't come here to make a choice, you've already made it. You're here to try to understand WHY you made it. I thought you'd have figured that out by now..." There are many other parallels, but I'm too tired to list them all. Suffice to say, as someone who has actually read Jean Baudrillard's "Simulacra and Simulation" (the non-fiction social theory book the Matrix is partially based on) and has seen the Matrix films way too often, nothing I have seen or read has struck such a resonant tone of stylistic similarity and structural parity with The Matrix than The Prisoner. I believe this is what The Wachowskis borrowed much of their Matrix material/structure/style/plot direction from. I won't ruin it for anyone, but if you can get your hands on The Prisoner at your local video store, you'll probably figure out (as I think I have) the direction the plot will go in the final film. I won't say it here, but I'll say that it will most likely include elements from all the above mentioned theories (Neo as man/program, matrix in a matrix, etc.). The legacy of The Prisoner is that college courses cropped up using the series as a social theory platform. I think The Matrix will eventually, despite the haters, inspire the same kind of academic attention.

knnknn

Fri, 04 Jul 2003 04:19:47 -0500

A lot of the questions raised in the threads above are picked up (and answered) in www.matrix-explained.com This site lists a lot of theories (with arguments and counter-arguments)...

rhia

Thu, 03 Jul 2003 10:30:00 -0500

i too would like to say i love this theory... rhia p.s. to the guy who emailed me..would you please email me at this address, someone hacked into my yahoo account and your addy was lost..thanks

martin

Thu, 03 Jul 2003 06:05:31 -0500

Yes, that really is one of the best things I've heard so far. EXCEPT In a lot of interviews with Keanu Reeves he dissmisses the possibility of more sequels, saying that this trilogy really is the end for Neo at least, however this idea leaves it more open ended.

Null

Thu, 03 Jul 2003 01:33:11 -0500

I have to agree. Logically the theory posted by 01 seems to hold water. In Reloaded, Morpheus did say to Counselor Hamman, 'consider that in the past 6 months we have freed more minds than in 6 years'. So if you take some rough swags at the timeline, it could look something like this. 3 months from the initial phone trace in M1 to finding Neo in the Matrix. 6 months of acupuncture treatments to get his muscles working again, 3 months of training before fighting agent Smith and final phone trace in M1. And finally 6 months of freeing minds as stated by Morpheus in Reloaded. That adds up to 18 out of the 19 months, and it's being very generous with the timing. One possible weakness with this theory may be that, in M1 Neo is in the 'Matrix' when he says, "I can feel you". In Reloaded he makes a similar statement in the 'Real World'. Not sure that it will end this way. But I wouldn't have a problem with it, if it did end this way. We'll just have to wait and see. See ya on the other side(Real World). Later, Null Where the hell did I put that red pill!

TruthBeTold

Thu, 03 Jul 2003 00:00:50 -0500

I like that....I really do

01

Tue, 01 Jul 2003 16:02:16 -0500

Here's a theory I found on the net a while ago, it's pretty good and I strongly suggest that you take the time to read it! This goes deep, so follow me if you will: The original Matrix starts with Trinity and Cypher talking, the screen shows "Trace Program" and the date "2-18-98". The movie ends with Neo making a phone call, the trace program is initiated and the date reads "9-18-99"... 19 months have passed! If you watch the movie again, you'll see that the time sequence implies that they found Neo shortly after that initial conversation (a few months after 2-18-98 at most). Significant? Yes; I propose that Reloaded and Revolutions (which we know occur one after another), take place between 2-18-98 and 9-18-99. Here's why: Only a few months could have passed from the time Morpheus and the crew 'free' Neo to the time Neo is killed and revived in the hallway. Why? for one, Neo's hair barely grows in that time and that's not a trivial observation (it's also obvious that Neo grew out his hair in Reloaded which occurs roughly 6 months after he's unplugged). We also know the W brothers don't put insignificant things into their movies - the fact that they obviously signal to us that 19 months have passed from the start of the Matrix to the time Neo makes that phone call is there for a reason. In Reloaded, Neo says that "I wish I knew what I was supposed to do". The phone call scene in the Matrix, Neo is very sure of what he is supposed to do, "I'm going to hang up this phone and show these people what you don't want them to see... a world without you, without controls and boundries". Why would he have forgotten what to do between M1 and M2? he didn't, that last scene in M1 occurs after Revolutions! Finally, at the end of M1, Neo states that "I can feel you now, you are scared". At the end of Reloaded he says, "Something is different, I can FEEL them now". One more thing. A game directed by the W brothers called Matrix online is due in '04 and the timeframe takes place after Revolutions... and the matrix is alive and well in the game. My guess is that there is no MWAM, they don't destroy the Matrix because they can't unplug everyone at once and we'll see Neo make that very same phone call at the end of Revolutions!

TruthBeTold

Mon, 30 Jun 2003 17:33:50 -0500

The information seems to be downloaded out from the Matrix...like an attachment to the avatars when they exit...thats how that chick from Final Flight was able to give the info to Zion and the rest of everyone

Blue Child

Mon, 30 Jun 2003 12:39:27 -0500

Yes, it's been brought up many times throughout this forum. Unfortunately, there aren't too many topics about the Matrix that haven't been brought up or discussed in great detail, in this forum. One thing that I don't think has been brought up at all, that I don't quite understand, is how they were able to bring back that piece of machinery, that was from the Oracle and given to Neo(while in Zion), from the Matrix. Unless they downloaded the information from the messenger as he re-entered the real world, it would hint to the fact that there is a Matrix within the Matrix.

Dynamo

Mon, 30 Jun 2003 10:30:56 -0500

Has anyone considered the fact that Neo may be a "cyborg" the perfect union between man and machine?? the saviour for both sides.

102

Fri, 27 Jun 2003 16:14:10 -0500

Buffalo Wings, please.......

rhia

Wed, 25 Jun 2003 21:03:19 -0500

disregard what i said earlier...it just occurred to me neo killed more than mr. smith at the end of the matrix..( or at least i think he did, its been awhile since i saw the first one-i need to refresh my memory and watch it again)

TruthBeTold

Wed, 25 Jun 2003 19:42:14 -0500

Eh...I think that Smiths onset of emotion had a lot to do with his "freedom"

rhia

Wed, 25 Jun 2003 18:22:02 -0500

i prefer hot wings with lots of celery and blue cheese... one last comment about matrix if you dont mind...mr. smith said he doesnt know how it happened but he isnt a part of the matrix anymore..he has been released. it occurred to me he was the first "agent" to be killed. im sure all of them would be released from the matrix if they were killed..its not like he was actually destroyed by the mainframe or where ever they go to be destroyed..so it stands to reason, anyone of the agents would be released..i have no idea what this means of course..lol, i need to stop thinking about the matrix and more on the new tomb raider game.

Blue Child

Wed, 25 Jun 2003 12:46:14 -0500

...most likely due to the fact that every possible speculation has either been exhausted, or isn't significant enough to bring up. I guess we'll just have to wait until November. So, just to keep the post open, who likes Hot Wings? Do you prefer Juicy or Crispy? and where's your favorite Hot Wing spot? Inquiring minds want to know...

Lloyd Christmas

Tue, 24 Jun 2003 18:34:51 -0500

geez....you're right....this party really died...

102

Tue, 24 Jun 2003 09:58:37 -0500

It had a good run......

TruthBeTold

Tue, 24 Jun 2003 01:16:43 -0500

Damn..this post is dying...:-/

Antti

Sun, 22 Jun 2003 08:57:19 -0500

About the bit where Neo rebuilds Zion: I think that the machines never destroy Zion; only it's human inhabitants. They destroy the fleet every time (as depicted in Reloaded) and then they advance to Zion. But there they won't destroy everything, instead they launch emp that stops the machines that keep Zion alive. The people die and the new founders of Zion (chosen by the One) inhabit it. It might even be possible that the current elders of Zion know something about this, but for this I'm not certain.

Spyder

Sat, 21 Jun 2003 22:03:08 -0500

..also, on the topic of the whole "altered your conciousness" statement that was made by the Architect, it sounds to me that "the process" that he was referring to had something to do with the programming of the One, Because they did not in any way explain how there could be previous One's, we were only left to assume things like Neo's a computer program etc. If Neo truly were some sort of program though, how could he be a human living in Zion? Well, we can either assume that A)that the Matrix in a Matrix idea is true and Neo is a computer program posing as a human 2)that Neo's human body is merely an advanced form of machine designed to look human. or D)that the process that the Architect is referring to involves taking a human and filling his mind with the computer code of the One, the same code that would have been reinserting back into the matrix to be recycled. This would allow the machines to use a human as a pawn in their evil little game

Spyder

Sat, 21 Jun 2003 21:32:29 -0500

The suggestion of the Architect's motives seemed to be that the machines "allowed" Zion's existence, whether it truly is a part of the real world or a secondary program, as a filtering process to separate the 99% from the 1%, The intuitive program that was created to understand the human psyche more had come to realize that the key to the whole process is choice, that the humans only accepted the Matrix reality if they had the choice of choosing it, even it were only on a subconcious level, this easily allowed the 99% of the human population to stay "occupied" by the Matrix construct, while the remaining 1% that fought to break free filtered out into Zion. The machines allow Zion to exist for this sole reasoning but are well aware that once the population becomes too great the humans become a threat to the machines and so they are systematically destroyed and allowed to be "reset" as the One has the option to choose ...what is it? 7 male, 14 female, anyhoo, the false history of Zion is re-instated as the new comers to Zion, just recently being freed from the Matrix into a whole new world are told the lies and are led to believe them as they once again continue the ongoing loop. As far as Neo goes, the recent theory of a wireless broadcast actually seems plausible, as the Oracle says in the video game, Neo "touched" the source and is now somewhere in between this world and the Matrix, Bane on the other hand wouldn't be considered to be in the same situation, he was able to descend far from broadcasting level and walk around Zion, so he is obviously no longer connected "in that way" to the Matrix, not that version of Smith anyway, as we all know Smith's virus like ability allows him to be in both places at once without needing to be connected.

Macca

Sat, 21 Jun 2003 07:58:40 -0500

Two things: Regarding Seraph, I don't believe he is anywhere as good as Neo. I've watched the fight carefully and Neo isn't trying to attack Seraph he is just blocking his hits. I'm sure if Neo really wanted to do him some damage he would have. In regard to the conscious altering process I believe it is Neo's mental struggle from going from a place to where he accepted the "laws" of the matrix to where he can fully manipulate the matrix around him.

Katy

Fri, 20 Jun 2003 22:36:31 -0500

HI GUYS! I was just wondering... Does ANYBODY know why the Architect orders Neo to rebuild Zion?

Blue Child

Fri, 20 Jun 2003 09:08:41 -0500

Referring to Eyehand's analysis on Neo's software being of machine origin: After citing the Architect's quote "although the process has altered your consciousness" you made me think about a couple things. One, does "the process" refer to the path that he has taken from the time he was simply a pawn in the Matrix, unaware of the truth, to the time he "broke out of his shell" (pun intended), to the present situation where he is confronted by the architect? Or, is it referring to some other process that we will only fully discover in Revolutions? To resurrect the whole "Neo as a machine" thoery, the architect said that he "remains irrevocably human" which could mean that he can't return from some form that he once was. From this, I would derive that not only was his body "grown" but that his brain activity and mentality were manufactured by the machines in order to compensate for the flaw in the Matrix. Would anyone care to elaborate further?

Martix_in_a_Matrix

Thu, 19 Jun 2003 22:04:02 -0500

Hey rhia, http://www.kottke.org/03/05/030515the_matrix_r.html 700+ posts, around 30 new posts a day. Really cool analysis of the film... jump on board.

rhia

Thu, 19 Jun 2003 19:43:18 -0500

does anyone talk about this other than here..like yahoo messenger or aol?..i would love to get into a discussion about all of this..

TruthBeTold

Thu, 19 Jun 2003 19:25:19 -0500

Rhia: I agree....and just because ur a girl doesnt mean you dont know....

rhia

Thu, 19 Jun 2003 17:03:36 -0500

i want to go back to Neo fighting the chinese guard..i agree, Neo did take 10 minutes out of his day to deal with all the smiths..but the fact still remains, the guard matched him throw for throw..it was the guard who stopped the fight, not Neo..usually Neo would destroy/knock unconscieous the attacker..with him, he didnt.its almost as if he couldnt get a solid hit in.he was blocking the guard, not actually taking over the fight and putting an end to it..Neo had no way of knowing if he was a friend or foe..so, it stands to reason, the guard was just as well equipped as Neo..at least in the fighting department..just my opinion..lol im just a girl, what do i know.

eyehand

Thu, 19 Jun 2003 12:31:51 -0500

Broadcast Effect: You can do a search on the web for Merovingian and come up with alot of stuff. Everything from a real dynasty of 3th and 4th century kings in what is today, western France to supposed decendents of Jesus Christ and Mary Magdalan to a mythical race of beings left over from Atlantis. The part about being French and being a left over from a previous civilization (i.e. previous matrix) seems to fit the character in the Matrix. I agree that the "broadcast effect" would solve the puzzle of Neo stopping the sentinels without resorting to a second Matrix or ascribing supernatural powers to Neo. But, I would think the "broadcast effect" would have a definite range, what Morpheus refered to as "broadcast depth". If Neo is wirelessly connected to the Matrix at the end of Reloaded then to move him further away from "broadcast depth" would potentially kill him. He would loose the connection to the Matrix. The same as pulling his head-jack out while still connected to the Matrix. If Bane is unsconcious for the same reason then you could argue that all the people that have the head-jack have the potenial (hardware) for wirelessly connecting to the Matrix, but they don't all have the same software to allow them to. Which might mean that the software in Neo is also of machine origin. This could explain the Architect's statment: "... although the process as altered your consciousness you remain irrevocably human..." How's that for a supposition based on inuendo derived from a conjecture?

Michael

Thu, 19 Jun 2003 09:23:02 -0500

Hmm . . On 2 things. 1. Did anyone notice that Seraph's code looked quite different from the rest of the matrix code? What can the significance be? 2. I quite like the "broadcast effect" mentioned. it would also explain why Neo is unconsious - he's wirelessly connected to the matrix (or maybe some command / shell / OS level of it and his consiousness is not in his body. Just like when they are physically jacked in, their real boddies do not repond to stimuli. Myabe he doesn't know how to Jack out now or cant find an exit. This may be the same reason Smith/Bane is unconsious - remember he was the only survivor and coulda commanded some squiddies too. I think revolutions will start off with Bane and Neo in this OS / command / shell level fighting and finding an exit. Just my 2 cents

Broadcast Effect

Thu, 19 Jun 2003 01:49:45 -0500

Hi everyone!! There are a lot of great posts here and they have given me food for thought about the matrix and it's meaning. While I have a few notions about the matrix, I'll just limit myself to an explaination about Neo being able to shut down the sentinels without being inside a 2nd matrix as some have proposed. (Although the 2nd matrix proponets may be right. BTW, the following explaination are my views and if someone said this before, sorry, I missed your post I didn't read every last one of the above posts, there are too many.) Think about this first, how does Neo's group enter the Matrix? They jack in to the matrix via computers on the ship in the movie. However, how do the computers on-board the ship connect to the Matrix? Ethernet? Nope... It's wireless!! If I do recall someone said "take us up to broadcast depth" in one of the Movies. (If I am wrong about the quote, sorry, but I do think that's how the "zions" jack into the matrix via wireless connections.) Now Neo being the ONE is highly sensitive to the Matrix. Neo's sensitvity by the end of the movie may have reached the point where he just realized he is able to "jack in" partially to the matrix without being connected, think of it as a "broadcast effect." The "broadcast effect" does exsist in the real world. Two documented examples of the broadcast effect are people picking up radio signals in their teeth due to fillings and unconnected light bulbs "lighting up" when placed near huge electrical power sources. Now as to the matrix movie, at the end of the 2nd Movie Neo said, "I can feel them." Consider the fact that almost all of the machines seem to be connected to the matrix. Neo's trick of shuting down the sentenals could be viewed as Neo simply sending wireless commands via the matrix to the Sentinels causing them to short circuit. This is a possible explaination for Neo's trick at the end of the 2nd movie.... Neo via the broadcast effect had gone wireless. PS. On a different note, I have read elsewhere that this name does have a basis in myth... Merovingian. P.S.S. How can 23 people rebuild Zion? Who builds/replaces the hovercrafts, grows food, etc? 23 People is not enough manpower for a restart, Hmmm....

Spyder

Thu, 19 Jun 2003 00:14:50 -0500

sorry that's "fight" two hundred Smiths

Former Agent Smith in Bane's body

Wed, 18 Jun 2003 22:00:12 -0500

"We'll be seeing you..."

Spyder

Wed, 18 Jun 2003 21:34:32 -0500

now now, a two minute long acrobatic dance routine does not constitute any kind of confirmation that Seraph was AS GOOD if not better than Neo in the fighting arts. Keep in mind that this is the same guy who rose from the dead with the ability to defeat Agents with the greatest of ease even having the ability to destroy them, I think that what people don't understand is that a lot of the scenes in Reloaded were showing us a restrained Neo who was more often then not faced with situations that he had little time to respond to, someone flys at him with karate chops his initial reaction is to defend and fight back but since half the time in the movie Neo was battling more than one individual, Neo was unable to use his abilities to their fullest since he had little time to react to what was going on, that is why Neo decided to take ten minutes out of his day to find two hundred Smiths as opposed to just flying away right away, he was being bombarded! Anyway, the suggestion of Neo being a program was definately there, as wa Seraph being a very powerful program, though I doubt he's any where close to the power of Neo

TruthBeTold

Wed, 18 Jun 2003 20:48:20 -0500

It looks like Neo would've eventually beat Seraph but I too found it interesting that Seraph was not only almost as powerful as Neo...but he was the most powerful program we have seen thus far...

rhia

Wed, 18 Jun 2003 17:29:41 -0500

i have been pondering the fight between Neo and the chinese guard..i find it interesting he could fight as well as Neo..almost to the point he matched every move..its like he knew what Neo was going to do before he did it..makes me think Neo is a program..the guard said i had to make sure it was you...he could tell by his skills but Neo's skills werent any better than the guards..

Macca

Wed, 18 Jun 2003 16:20:49 -0500

Alright guys, I haven't spoken on here for a while but I reckon we've just about exhausted all the arguments and suggestions on the data available - all that remains now is to wait for Revolutions. However, one more notion for food for thought until November. Some of the beliefs referenced to in the films are... Gnostic beliefs: A chosen few that will see past the false reality (the matrix) that the devil (the architect) has fooled us with, they will find the true nature of reality and exist with God. Christian beliefs: Jesus Christ (neo) is resurrected (end of the first film) and then hangs about a bit before entering Heaven to be with God. Also, there are 24 elders (the 23 and the One) that are seated beside God in heaven. Buddhist beliefs: The enlightened (the one) will be reincarnated until they see the true nature of reality and ascend to Nirvana where they will be at one with karma [which some say is the same as God]. It seems to me that there will be some sort of representation of God in the next film. You heard it from me first...

eyehand

Wed, 18 Jun 2003 14:49:03 -0500

Sorry for not following protocol. The dialog between Neo and the Oracle was very fuzzy to me. The most interesting thing she said was: "Because you didn't come here to make the choice. You've already made it. You're here to try to understand why you made it. . . " I felt she was refering to Neo's previous Matrix incarnation where he made the choice of returning to source and in this incarnation he needs to understand it. Reminded me of Buddhism, where a soul is condemned to reincarnation until it has learned to understand and transcend the illusion of the real world, and only then can it attain nirvana or true reality. In other words "there is no spoon". Another reason (like it or not) I think the 'real world' is just another matrix. The line I found intriguing though was Seraph's, when he said: "I protect that which is matters most" What matters most? The Oracle or the 'reality' she represents? Was he there to protect the Oracle or was he there to make sure she behaves and tells Neo what she is supposed to say? or both?

Blue Child

Wed, 18 Jun 2003 09:47:01 -0500

My mistake. I had forgotten that someone asked for it to be posted. I know I could've just skipped to the next post, but I was interested to read what someone's thougts/analysis might be on the Neo/Oracle exchange of dialogue. Sorry if I offended you, eyehand.

eyehand

Wed, 18 Jun 2003 09:37:35 -0500

Blue Child , Um..., I just recently read the request from Fabio for the dialog and I obliged. I apologize if this offended anyone. But I would suggest to anyone that doesn't want to read a particular posting to just move on to the next.

Blue Child

Wed, 18 Jun 2003 08:37:47 -0500

To eyehand and Former Agent Smith: I think it's great that you have certain scenes memorized or documented and it was very nice of you, eyehand, to place the whole dialogue between Neo and the Oracle on this Site. But, the fact that you made all of us read the whole thing without even commenting on it just shows that your profficiency lies in the ability to waste everyone's time. So give us some comments on why you posted the dialogue. And Former Agent Smith: Are you seeing anyone for what's wrong with you?

TruthBeTold

Wed, 18 Jun 2003 04:52:37 -0500

Can anyone speculate on why Neo and Smith are (seemingly) fighting one on one in Revolutions? That would mean that smith would've had to have gained a lot more power. Perhaps thats Neo fighting the Smith coming from Bane...dunno...interesting though...

TruthBeTold

Wed, 18 Jun 2003 04:48:32 -0500

Just wanted to say something :-D BestPAGE

Ted Theodore Logan

Tue, 17 Jun 2003 23:58:58 -0500

Its actually really interesting to watch Reloaded now after all the deep analyzing going on, its a much better story if you sit down, ignore the hype and view it for the movie it was intended to be. Every scene seems to have purpose which most claim to think a lot of it was unnecessary or did not flow smoothly with the plot. But that is not true, the Big Brawl was very justifyable,As was the rave sequence (though it was a bit unnecessarily long, guess the Imax version must be pretty good considering the Imax only can show 2 hour movies so 20 minutes were cut, snip snip rave sequence) Anyway, its really amazing to me how the Wachoski's seem to develop this deep multilayered mythology that can only be found in comic books and tv series like Star Trek or Buffy the Vampire Slayer that developed their layers over a period of several years , all this is done in a single movie, the arch nemesis of Smith and his connection with Neo, the Matrix being the home world of not only the human prisoners but computer program prisoners as well, The whole Bane storyline, Morpheus and Niobe's relationship, Even without the Animatrix and Enter the Matrix as add ons this film has successfully formed itself as the comic book movie it was always intended to be, with the first movie (which is a masterpiece standalone film but was never really intended to be what the Wachoski's were trying to get at, no ...the First Matrix movie was merely a stepping stone to the vision they had, a sort of guide book or instructional manual introducing us into the world, logic, and physics of the Matrix universe, Reloaded however, took off the training wheels and trusted that we knew enough to get the jist and just dropped us deep into the middle of everything that's going on in this bizarre comic book world, and I'm loving every minute of it

rhia

Tue, 17 Jun 2003 22:49:15 -0500

UM...someone asked for it to be posted..:)

Former Agent Smith

Tue, 17 Jun 2003 22:18:56 -0500

"The great thing about me is ...there's so many me's..."

I hate Former Agent Smiths

Tue, 17 Jun 2003 22:07:44 -0500

I think the name says it all. Shut up, dude.

Former Agent Smith

Tue, 17 Jun 2003 18:47:04 -0500

"We are not here because we are free.....we are here because we are not free..."

Um...

Tue, 17 Jun 2003 18:43:40 -0500

Any particular reason why you posted the Oracle and Neo's conversation?

Dan

Tue, 17 Jun 2003 18:32:03 -0500

Haven't check on here recently but up to 350 messages , Whoa. This thread actually looks longer than the script for reloaded

Dan

Tue, 17 Jun 2003 18:31:10 -0500

Haven't check on here recently but looks up to 350 messages , Whoa. This thread actually looks longer than the script for reloaded

eyehand

Tue, 17 Jun 2003 17:42:49 -0500

Neo: Are you a programmer? Seraph: I protect that which matters most. Oracle: Well come on, I ain't going to bite you. Come around here and let me have a look at you. My goodness. Look at you. You turned out all right, didn't you? How do you feel? Neo: I ahh. Oracle: I know you're not sleeping. We'll get to that. Why don't you come and have a sit? Neo: Maybe I'll just stand. Oracle: Suit yourself. Neo: I felt like sitting. Oracle: I know. So, Let's get the obvious stuff out of the way. Neo: You're not human, are you? Oracle: It's tough to get anymore ovbious than that. Neo: If I had to guess, I'd say you were a program from the machine world. So is he. Oracle: So far so good. Neo: But if that's true that could mean you are a part of the system. Another kind of control. . . Oracle: Keep going. Neo: I suppose the most obvious question is, how can I trust you? Oracle: Bingo. This is a pickle. No doubt about it. Bad news is that there's no way if you really can know whether I'm here to help you or not. So, it's really up to you. Just have to make up your own damn mind. You can either accept what I'm going to tell you or reject it. Candy ? Neo: You already know if I'm going to take it? Oracle: Wouldn't be much of an Oracle if I didn't. Neo: But if you already know, how can I make a choice? Oracle: Because you didn't come here to make the choice. You've already made it. You're here to try to understand why you made it. . . I thought you'd have figured that out by now. Neo: Why are you here? Oracle: Same reason. I love candy. Neo: But why help us? Oracle: We're all here to do what we're all here to do. I'm interested in one thing Neo. The future. And believe me I know. The only way to get there is together. Neo: Are there other programs like you? Oracle: Oh, well, not like me, but .. Look, see those birds, at some point a program was written to govern them. A program was written to watch over the trees and the wind, sunrise and sunset. There are programs running all over the place. The ones doing their job, doing what they were meant to do are invisible. you'd never even know they were here. But the other ones, well, you hear about them all the time. Neo: I've never heard of them. Oracle: Well, of course you have. Everytime you heard someone say they saw a ghost or an angel. Every story you've ever heard about vampires, werewolves or aliens is the system assimilating some program that's doing something they're not supposed to be doing. Neo: Programs hacking programs. Why? Oracle: They have their reasons, but usually a program chooses exile when it faces deletion. Neo: And why would a program be deleted. Oracle: Maybe it breaks down. Maybe a better program is created to replace it. Happens all the time. And when it does, a program can either choose to hide here or return to the source. Neo: The machine mainframe. Oracle: Yes. Where you must go, Where the path of the one ends. You've seen it, in your dreams, haven't you? The door made of light. What happens when you go through the door? Neo: I see Trinity. And something happens. Something bad. She starts to fall. Then I wake up. Oracle: Do you see her die? Neo: No. Oracle: You have the sight now Neo. You are looking at the world without time. Neo: Then why can't I see what happens to her. Oracle: We can never see past the choices we don't understand. Neo: Are you saying I have to choose whether Trinity lives or dies? Oracle: No, you've already made the choice. Now you have to understand it. Neo: No, I can't do that. I won't. Oracle: You have to. Neo: Why? Oracle: Because you're the ONE. Neo: What if I can't? What happens if I fail? Oracle: Then Zion will fall. Our time is up. Listen to me Neo. You can save Zion if you reach the source. But to do that you will need the Key Maker. Neo: The Key Maker? Oracle: Yes he disapeared some time ago. We did not know what happened to him until now.He's being held prisoner by a very dangerous program. One of the oldest of us. He's called the Merovingian. He will not let him go willingly. Neo: What does he want? Oracle: What do all men with power want? More power. Be there. At that exact time. And you'll have a chance. Seraph: We must go. Oracle: Seems like everytime we meet. I got nothing but bad news. I'm sorry about that, I surely am. But for what it's worth, you've made a believer out of me. Good luck kiddo.

Dynamo

Tue, 17 Jun 2003 16:54:53 -0500

skydiver 23 others plus Neo equals 24. in the book of Revelations there 4 and twenty elders around the throne of God. these people act as the will of God. they are his divinely ordained to carry out the commands of the One. there are 23 elders plus God makes 24.

Blue Child

Tue, 17 Jun 2003 13:06:07 -0500

I don't believe that it is possible for humanity to slow down the evolutionary process, sigularly or collectively speaking. Evolution is a process that occurs whether we want it to or not. Unfortunately, our population growth coupled with the momentum of evolution has forced us into an era that I like to call the Claustrophobic Age. It's a time when all the easily devisable original ideas have been used up, but yet a lot of people are still trying to devise ways to achieve the American dream, and, in the process, are inundating the world with the multitude of material and informational products and services. It's an adolescence that we are not prepared to take on. I believe, in the near future, there will be a breakdown in society whereby new laws and order will need to be established in order to save the planet on which we live. A resetting of our matrix, if you will. Like in Zion, technology will be dedicated to ensuring not our ease but our survival. Any thoughts?

skydiver

Tue, 17 Jun 2003 11:56:57 -0500

Has anybody thought about the significance of the number 23 ?(Neo could choose 23 for the new Zion) As in human body has 23 pair of chromosomes. And the whole matrix is just the functioning of human mind choosing in the end the right set of chromosomes to be propagated to the next generation. Instead of going Matrix into matrix, everything could finally be summed up in just one human brain !! And whatever he does could be explained as being a dream.

Slowly Evolving

Tue, 17 Jun 2003 11:14:51 -0500

You guys have a point. It took me a while to fully comprehend the Matrix Reloaded. There are many unfortunate people out there, however, that don't. I dont' believe that we are slowing down our evolution process mentally. Everyone in this world has the same IQ level. I truly believe that. I think that we are deevolving physically. Society has become so important in our lives that we are starting to require it. We are so dependant on machines these days that we wont be able to exist without them. Its like those little green alien blobs in Jimmy Neutron that cant live without being in a machine shell. Thats us in about ten thousand years. Society is able to mold us into the people we are today. Society now tells us to obey the law, but that violence and seeing shit blown up on the big screen is cool. Thats why people dont like the Matrix Reloaded. Society tells us thinking is not cool. While we still all have slowly evolving good minds, we choose not to think into it, because thats so uncool. Instead, we'd rather go see fast cars and abso-frickin-lutley hot women in 2fast 2furious, which by the way isnt that bad if you sit down and watch it. The only diffrence from that and the Matrix Reloaded is there are no scenes which involve the thought process. Thats why we silly minded apes don't understand the Matrix Reloaded. We are told not too and in return, we slowly deevolve.

Blue Child

Tue, 17 Jun 2003 08:50:33 -0500

Salute To Reloaded: I agree with you. It's a shame that a lot of people in this world so quickly down a film by using such remarks as "the fight scenes were too long" or "it was just too rediculous to believe." So many people critique a film like it was some high school boyfriend that broke their heart and now this is the way to get back at him. The real critiquing should be done on their own minds. Something like, "I thought my thought process was too mundane and close-minded that I could not understand nor appreciate the elegance of a film such as this, but then again I don't even know why I went because I don't like Sci-Fi films." Does that sound about right for some people?

Salute to Reloaded

Tue, 17 Jun 2003 01:00:03 -0500

It is rather quite disappointing that we as an advancing intelligent species have begun to slow to a horrific halt on an evolutionary level, a problem that our ancestors had dealt with several centuries ago but were mysteriously able to overcome with a vengeance, and though there are theories suggesting that the only reason why man was able to revert back from the verge of extinction was because of the overwhelming aide of an advanced alien race who came to Earth several millenia ago, that is neither here or there, the point that I was eventually getting to is that here we are at the dawn of the twenty first century yet for some reason, our unbelievable rate of advancement has become nothing more than an unsteady crawl and we are once again facing a moment of weakness at the edge of extinction and it seems that there are no aliens to save us from the fact that we are nothing more than simple minded chimps who for some reason can no longer accept the logistics of philosophy and the comprehension of good storytelling in today's modern cinema. This is unforunate in the fact that when a film like Matrix Reloaded is released to these simple minded apes that a tragic separation is created between those that hated the film, and those who on some level understood the film. Big flashy words that probably can't even be found in the average person's Thesaurus and deep philosophical ideas and theories even remotely trying to explain the physics of reality and overall meaning of existence itself are not what make a good summer movie as most of those silly apes will tell you, sure they made up for it with the amazing special effects, but sadly, the movie is not getting respect for the non cgi induced scenes in the movie. Perhaps this is merely a film created for the not so average ape and should just be accepted as that. It disheartens me however that the not so average apes must walk alone in their own psychological desert of the real as we realize that to everyone else, this great film does not matter, it is merely a souped up hyped up sequel that deserves less respect than other great top quality movies that the apes prefer to watch like 2 Fast 2 Furious (ugh). Nevertheless, this rant is probably going unread as I'm sure if you are still reading this you are now regretting that you continued to read on instead of skipping to the next post as everyone else did two minutes ago. I will finish by saying that this sequel is a worthy companion piece to his predecessor and not some cheap sequel knockoff that ruined the story and appreciation for the Matrix universe. If choice is truly an illusion, than the choice that most have made in underappreciating the Matrix Reloaded must be a temporary glitch in the Matrix that is pop culture, and perhaps one day, after Revolutions floods our tiny little brain lobes with the necessary images, ideas, and exposition that fit snuggly into the missing puzzle pieces that most were left with after watching Reloaded, then perhaps this film will get the recognition it deserves as the final product will be completed, every puzzle piece in place, portraying a glorious mural that will make even the simplest of apes stop and sit just so they can gaze at its brilliance

102

Tue, 17 Jun 2003 00:03:43 -0500

Reality Bites is the man. I totally agree with everything that dude just said. Yes, we are all unknowing of the future (aka Revolutions). However, some of us merely write because we just need to express some feelings. For instance, i like writing about my dislike for the matrix within a matrix theory. Won't that totally suck ass? Others are just finding answers, so thank god for a website like this.

Former Agent Smith

Mon, 16 Jun 2003 22:50:17 -0500

"We are not here because we are free....we are here because we are not free.."

Dynamo

Mon, 16 Jun 2003 14:21:57 -0500

thank you Blue Child. i haven't read all of the previous comments being that i am new to this site. has the fact that many of the characters including the Oracle come from greek mythology?? Morpheus-son of Hypnos. he has the ability to imitate the image and speech of man in dreams. Persephone-the wife of Hades. forced to live in the underworld for half of the year causing fall and winter Niobe-daughter of Tantalus who was turned into stone and had her entire family murdered do to her arrogance.

Blue Child

Mon, 16 Jun 2003 13:59:46 -0500

Dynamo: The book was titled "Simulcra and Simulation." It discussed the notion that things aren't always what they seem.

Dynamo

Mon, 16 Jun 2003 13:50:52 -0500

that's interesting. pi is approximately 3.14. i also noticed that Neo worked for Metrocortex as Thomas A. Anderson. he wrote programs that were used by the mainframe to maintain control over the humans....how ironic. does anyone remember what the name of the book was that Neo got the disc from that he sold to Choi in part 1??

Blue Child

Mon, 16 Jun 2003 12:54:36 -0500

Dyanmo: I believe the Oracle said WE'RE lost because she was attempting to instigate Neo's self-realization of being the one by identifying herself as one of the humans. Also it may be because she wishes for the Human/Machine Unity. A while ago, on this message board, there was a discussion as to whether or not Neo was a machine referring to the part where he stopped a sword from slicing through his hand. What needs to be clarified is that what happens in the Matrix cannot prove anything about the material in physical (real) world. For instance, I'm sure I speak for many when I say that until Reloaded I thought that the Oracle was a person who used the Matrix as a medium to speak with the others that were "freed" but couldn't get home to Zion to speak to her. So, back to the Matrix as it pertains to the "real" world. If Neo can alter the Matrix in order to stop Bullets, then it stands to reason that a sword would be no problem. On a non-related topic, has anyone else noticed the repeated use of Pi in both movies. It appeared once in the beginning and the end of the first Matrix (during the trace programs), and the Keymaker referred to the amount of time they would have to reach "the door" once the power was shut down, which was 314 seconds, in Matrix Reloaded.

ReAliTy BiTes

Mon, 16 Jun 2003 12:47:02 -0500

If anyone hears any insider facts on Revolution... please post it here. I would enjoy some news that would make sense of all this. And please stop posting bulls*it. After watching that movie I can honestly say I am confused as hell!!!..I CAN admit it! Why can't you guys? After reading all this I am more confused than I was be4. And when everyone finds out what is really going on and what really happens in 'Revolution' that one special person will get to say "I told you so" and no one will care. So please save it.

Dynamo

Mon, 16 Jun 2003 12:37:21 -0500

my first mistake was with the spelling of my name. next i would like to say that Morpheus being a saviour means that he is the key figure in keeping the people's faith in Neo. without him the people would be in disbelief. also being that the Oracle was with the humans since the beginning of the "resistance" is also why i believe she is not the "mother" of the matrix.

Dyanmo

Mon, 16 Jun 2003 10:03:27 -0500

if the Oracle is that intuitive program, then why did she tell Neo in the Matrix 1, "poor Morpheus...without him WE'RE lost." ?? the Oracle's purpose is to create a reality in which man and machine will be able to live in a symbiotic existence. being that she is a program herself, what other reason would she say that Morpheus is a saviour for the both of them (man and machine)??

Dude

Mon, 16 Jun 2003 01:46:28 -0500

The Matrix is a metaphor man, totally, no we're not living in a computer simulated world created by machines as a distraction to keep us from realizing that in the end we're just being used as batteries for a machine race that mankind chose to exhile years ago, but we are living in a system created by the governing powers that be to do and say and act and eat and everything just the way they want us to, and they do this via laws, rules, media reports, religion (you can't tell me the Wachowski's aren't trying to make a point of Neo as the One being a government controlled religion or at least suggesting the possibility of it), we are slaves in a world where we cannot live unless we have the money and the paperwork that says we can live, where to live as a human being means you must be everything that they want you to be or else are banished to the streets as bum, the sad thing is we are not able to wake up like in the Matrix, we are trapped here forever, in this state of controlled hell, and judging by the fact that a majority of the people choose to bitch about how fucked up the world is yet not act on them, I don't expect anyone to rise above it all and initiate a revolution to free us from the shackles of a dominating empire focused on the idea that the people in power are the actual citizens of humanity, and everyone else is just the ants, the cattle, the robots to do their dirty work

Spyder

Sun, 15 Jun 2003 18:55:03 -0500

Actually, the video game Enter the Matrix explains that the Oracle is "reprogrammed" to look different in the third movie so a different actress will play her. Haven't heard to much about Chong's son, kinda sucks that Tank wasn't in the sequels, makes Link's character seem kinda flat considering he should've been Tank! Notice how they make it a point to refer to Dozer and not Tank in Reloaded, notice how Tank's death was never even really explained because it would've been a waste of time ....hmm..whatever beef is going on between the studio and him must be big.

102

Sun, 15 Jun 2003 18:32:31 -0500

Some other questions i forgot. How is the Oracle going to make an appearence in the third movie? The woman who originally played her is now deceased. Is she even going to be in it? Also, does anybody know how the court case if the guy that played Tank vs. Warner Bros. going? Why wasnt he allowed in movies 2 and 3?

102

Sun, 15 Jun 2003 18:27:43 -0500

Amen on that last statement, Brisvegas1 I'm having problems agreeing with a lot of these theories. Although many seem to be good assumptions (like rhia's Persphony is the Mother theory and basically all the Smith theories) i still cant grasp the matrix within a matrix theory or the EMP theory. i just hope #3 fills in the holes. By the way, i think the theory revolving around the sunglasses meaning something for those who fight is a little to out there for me. If you watch movies like Mission Impossible 2 or Blade you notice how the shades miracuosly stay on as if they were super-glued. Its just a way for Warner Bros. to make they're movie look cool. I personnaly would rather watch Morpheous blow shit up wearing shades just because they make the brother look more bad ass. And the cameras paying explicit detail to Neo breaking Smith's shades in the first movie? They just wanted to show how much Smith was getting beaten. But of course, it is a theory and i dont know because the third movie isnt out yet, i just like to vent some thoughts onto this site. By the way, isnt Persephony that prostitute from Brotherhood of the Wolves? i thought she looked familiar.

Spyder

Sun, 15 Jun 2003 18:04:00 -0500

um...no..the Architect said "please" merely because he did not agree with the title of the Oracle since he knows more than anyone that she is no Oracle, merely an intuitive program created by the machines to calculate precise probabilities in order to understand why man does what man does. Her research led to the concept of choice, and that gave the machines enough information to create a Matrix that would maintain and would not fail as the first Matrix (the perfect version) and the second (the one based on mankinds grotesqueries)did. Persephone just wanted a kiss to remember what it was like to be in love. She said that the Merovingion was just as in love with her as Neo was with Trinity. The biggest point that they were trying to make in the Matrix Reloaded was that the computer programs, not just the Oracle, had the ability to feel emotions. Smith, Persephone, the Merovingion at one point, The Keymaker, they all developed human like characteristics while being in the Matrix. No, the Oracle is the Mother, not Persephone...and she is so for good reason, because she was one of the few machines that was able to understand the humans on a deeper level, a spiritual level. The Oracle is still a renegade program, however, no longer a servant of the machines but definately a slave of someone as it appears in the video game. From the sounds of the conversation she had with Neo on the bench, she believes in a world where man and machine can live together in harmony, and she, like Morpheus, and everyone else, have faith that Neo will save everyone, both men and machines from the slave life of the Matrix. Yup...multiple revolutions.

rhia

Sun, 15 Jun 2003 10:35:02 -0500

the wife Persphony is the Mother of the Matrix, from what I believe about the story.i believe she is the emotional program that the artitech was talking about, but Neo was thinking of the Oracle but the Artitech said, "please" when the Neo mentioned the Oracle as the Mother. So it seems that Neo didn't catch it on who the actual mother of the matrix was.Plus being an emotional program, she wanted to feel Neo through the Kiss. ok..these arent my words but i thought i would share them and get your opinions on it..( i was chatting with someone and i thought they made sense)

Aphrodelik

Sun, 15 Jun 2003 02:04:46 -0500

hey DeRais...we're living in a matrix? hey buddy, its just a movie. We are over analyzing? umm ok. I think "over analyzing" is better than trying to live the movie. Then again, if you are right...I would love to "wake up." Delta Nu - 0096

grrr....

Sat, 14 Jun 2003 22:23:56 -0500

All this talk of individuals who've seen a movie yet have developed endless theories that negate each other's theories. Grr...by the time Revolutions comes out and reveals to us exactly what the fuck is going on...I'm not sure If I'm gonna care about it too much...wracking my brain about it all right now....they say the Matrix in a Matrix idea is stupid, Neo as a robot sounds illogical! Grrrrr!!!

Brisvegas1

Sat, 14 Jun 2003 17:46:53 -0500

A couple of thoughts about clock maker universes: 1.much like a scientific experiment you would want to control extraneous (random) variables as much as possible. i.e. if in one version of the matrix Oranges are... well... orange, then they are in all versions of the matrix. Following on from this - you would want all the clockmaker universes to have identical initial starting conditions. (As an aside - I am reminded here of the early experiments in chaos theory - from which we get the now famous concept of the butterfly effect. Simulations that start off with very nearly identical states end up in wildly divergent states because of the perpetuation and magnification of those tiny initial differences.) Now this idea of the matrix as a clockmaker universe can be coupled with statements by the Architect, which says essentially "You(r life is) are the sum of a remainder of an unbalanced equation inherent to the programming of the matrix..... a harmony of mathematical precision." Together you get the idea here that the only thing that differs from one iteration of the matrix to another is the nature of the code (embodied / carried by the one) which is inserted back into the source to "reload" the matrix. This to me suggests that the humans are clones - a cypher in one matrix will be a cypher in another. Genetic variability (and any differences in responses to stimuli that it might cause) would not be allowed to pollute the purity of the system. Now this is where things get a little wild. 2. If all the various iterations of the matrix start off identically then the concept of time in the matrix universe is seriously loopy compared to the reality that we inhabit. You could almost make the argument that what we are seeing is not iterations of the matrix, but parallel simulations. Something along the idea of the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics. I am tempted to think about the "stars" - the points of light seen when neo first enters the room to talk to the architect - could each of them represent another iteration of the matrix? Could the Architect's "control room" represent some sort of singularity - a point of interface for something above and beyond the matrix that has access to all the various "iterations". Could the screens then represent not possibilities of neo's "conversational responses" that he might make, but in fact are representation of each of the many versions of the matrix where neo does make the "choice" portrayed on the screen. The film is of course a linear narrative - we can only follow one thread of the many possibilities, but for a moment - while we see the screens, we get an idea of what an oracle level view of the matrix is like - with every possibility laid out in parallel, needing only the the thread of intentionality/choice to tie everything together. Sure this is just another matrix within a matrix / turtles all the way down type of idea. But the point is that we are following the path of "the one" - the series of choices that lead us out of these recursive iterations of the matrix. So lets recap: The matrix/universes start the same - except for the code of the one. They are clockwork universes, but in spite of this, over "time" they diverge due to the minute differences in their initial conditions provided by "the one's" code. We don't get to see it all - we don't get to see the various iterations of the matrix where trinity doesn't get up, where neo is unable to see that there is no spoon, where neo doesn't break the vase. We only get to see the narrow slice of the "choices" that see neo enter the door to the Architects control room. And here the W. bro's have performed another neat trick.... There is a binary choice. Left door or Right door. What is this - it is a double slit experiment . Go read the link. Ok back with me - so light exhibits the properties of a particle and a wave. when you get a device that can emit such a small amount of light that it emits only a single photon- you would expect that photon to act like a particle. Like a billiard ball - it can only pass through one of the slots not both. Similary you would expect that Neo can pass through only one of the doors not both. But hey - what do you know - its's a quantum universe after all - and that single photon of light acts like a wave as well as a particle and it "interferes" with itself - it acts as if it had passed through both slits. I wonder if neo is the same - if he is acting as both a particle and a wave, might he not be interfering with himself too? If all those iterations of the matrix where "the one" chooses to return to the source are suffering interference from from the ones where "the one" doesn't and vice versa. Ok now lets push things even further out on a speculative limb. Might this be the explanation for Neo's ability to stop the squiddies. (I am tempted to go even further and say that there are some universes where he doesn't stop the squiddies - we just don't see / slash follow them.) It is very easy for a prophecy to be true, when all possibilities exist simultaneously. You just ignore all the poosibilities / universes / matrix iteratons where the prophecy hasn't come true. I haven't yet worked out quite what the ramifications of this theory are for how the movie might play itself out. Hell - it is so seriously speculative that I consider it to be pretty unlikely. But, still, it is an interesting alternative to the binary of the "matrix in a matrix" VS. "the zion is the real world" arguments. ps. has anyone here read the works of Greg Egan? I wonder if his novels Permutation City, Distress and Diaspora have anything to tell us about the nature of reality in the matrix. (Here is a hint - Egan's work is way more noodle baking than the matrix) I guess that is something for another post... Come to http://www.kottke.org/03/05/030515the_matrix_r.html for more

AA Man

Sat, 14 Jun 2003 11:49:05 -0500

This is a post for Truth be Told: Please pull the stick out of your exterior and realize that it was just a joke. I am not trying to turn this site into Happy Hour, i just merely thought some people could find the humor in these subjects. You apparently are not one of them.

Sat, 14 Jun 2003 10:55:18 -0500

AA Man/Truth be Told There's a physical size limit for creatures without lungs as well. It's to do with gaseous diffusion and surface area to volume ratios. Back in the day, the oxygen content of the atmosphere was a lot higher, so you could have bigger creppy crawlies.

Cris Criswell

Sat, 14 Jun 2003 10:51:10 -0500

rhia, The Merovingian is a program. The Oracle tells Neo that he is "a very dangerous program, one of the oldest of us." So he has been inside the Matrix for a long time. He has a need to keep the Matrix going because that's where all his power resides. So the way I see it, the Merovingian needs to get Neo to the source so the Matrix will be perpetuated. The Merovingian wants the human race to continue its existence. Without humans, there is no need for the Matrix, and without the Matrix there is no kingdom for him to rule. If the One does not disseminate the code, the system will crash and all humans inside the Matrix will die (at least according to the Architect).

rhia

Sat, 14 Jun 2003 08:09:28 -0500

amen truth... so, can anyone explain why the french gentleman could be around for more than one Neo if he is human..or did i miss it and hes only a computer program... do the people in the matrix actually die or only the people in Zion?

truthbetold

Sat, 14 Jun 2003 01:04:27 -0500

Actually due to the intrinsic nature of exoskeletons it is impossible for bug to evolve to a monstrous size. the exoskeleton would becom impossibly thick inorder to support its own weight and to protect the soft insides....A little Discovery Channel knowledge....now can we please keep the post on this site intelligent...because those who attempt humor fail miserably...this is a Matrix Reloaded/Revolutions speculations forum...Not a comedy central tryout post....

AA Man

Sat, 14 Jun 2003 00:21:43 -0500

Regarding the "Cocktrix" dilemma, you think due to all the nuclear war and the span of a hundred years, cockroaches would have mutated and probably could be human sized. The machines could then enslave the cockroaches and plug them in if they ran out of humans. However, i dont think id go see that movie and then Powerade would be really up the creek.

matrix_in_a_matrix

Fri, 13 Jun 2003 21:43:43 -0500

Just another thought - but if smith has taken over every human in the matrix - there will not be any need to save any humans there - you could just switch it off. Wit an entire worl of smith infected humans on one side and the population of zion on the other - it would make saving zion even more important. (last bastion of humanity and all that jazz)

matrix_in_a_matrix

Fri, 13 Jun 2003 21:39:32 -0500

Hey folks - there is a MEGA Matrix Reloaded Explained thread going on over at http://www.kottke.org/03/05/030515the_matrix_r.html . Not that there isnt good stuff going on here, ;) but sometime you just want... MORE! The best stuff, in terms of figuring out what the movie is all about, starts about half way down. Be careful as you get to the end of the thread though, because they have started speculating what is going to happen in the next movie..... and you may want to just watch it rather than hearing about it in advance ;)

TruthBeTold

Fri, 13 Jun 2003 18:27:43 -0500

In terms with Zionite beliefs I would say that the sacrifice of 6 billion humans is the Utilitarian thing to do in their eyes...

Evil_Inside

Fri, 13 Jun 2003 17:32:25 -0500

Here's a question that just occurred to me: Imagine what would happen if suddenly the Matrix were to crash or "lock up". Everyone would probably die. So basically in order to save every human connected to the Matrix, Neo and the rest of the Zionites, that are awakening minds and freeing them from the matrix, would have to perform some kind of mass awakening. How can Neo save every human being connected to the Matrix if only 1% of the population rejects it? And that 1% don't really know what's going on. He would have to somehow convince the 99% of population that accepts the matrix as reality, that it was not reality,and that machines were enslaving them to provide energy. Bottom line: most would not believe it. He would be seen as a lunatic. Even if he could some how convince 99% of the population of earth to "take the red pill" let's think about the logistics behind such an act: Millions of people ranging from the ages of 1 day to over 100 years old suddenly awaken, and find themselves inside of pod full of pink jelly connected to some kind of device with wires and cords protruding from all their orifices and limbs. Suddenly they realize that they are miles above the ground on a ledge the size of a bathtub surrounded by hairless, humanoid-looking creaters in a similar predicament. Then they see the giant, insectoid robots unplugging everyone around them. Most would die from shock and cardiac failure. The rest, if they somehow survive, what happens to them? Most will lose their minds and mass panic erupts. Some become hysterical and jump to their deaths from their pods or commit suicide some other way. Others become homicidal kill everyone around them. The rest simply run around like mad, looking for some recognizable structure or something to hide in. Even if some keep their wits and managed to get out alive - what happens to them? They would the basics: Food, water, shelter, and heat. Where would all of these people go, Zion is not THAT big is it? How do they get to Zion? They don't even know it exists. Most would need surgery to repair their muscles. It looks like the only solution is to sacrifice all the people connected to the matrix in hopes of destroying the machines. Then Zion restarts the human race.

rhia`

Fri, 13 Jun 2003 16:24:50 -0500

martin...about the french gentleman..he said the "ones" before Neo weren't so arrogant (i dont remember the exact quote)..this leads me to believe he has survived many "ones"..he wouldn't care if Neo doesnt succeed..he obviously isnt going to be destroyed...he may even enjoy starting from scratch..but then again, why would he..the matrix isnt destroyed..only the people living in Zion..

martin

Fri, 13 Jun 2003 15:57:53 -0500

Evil Inside I think when people refer to Neo as a machine, they don't mean as in a metal and sillicon construct. I think they're just trying to find away to seperate what we consider human from artificial constructs. (Think about it in the way that the agents take over the bodies of human beings. We'd call them machines but they're still flesh and blood. Only now a program is running them, we think the same about neo) And wouldn't the "only human" comment that has cropped up a few times be great irony? And also tank did say he was like a machine? Also, I'm not a genetic engineer but I did do a degree course in biochemistry. If machine's grew humans from a batch of plueripotent cells, (assuming they'd use an artificial trophoderm) people would be clonal, looking the same. It would probably be just as easy to extract sperm and ovum from people in the matrix as fit. Also this diversity would benefit the machines, otherwise their powersource would be really suseptible to disease. (remember the dead is gorund up and fed to the living so their *is* contact between humans linked up to the matrix. It's a wonder they haven't all got spongiorm encephalitis actually. If Neo is explained as a genetic anomally I'll be very, very upset. Ok, just to add a few more thoughts/summary of what people have been saying. Morevignon. I wonder if he was made to be like persephone, to experiance love, but this time from the male point of view. But as his program has aged it has become corrupted and now he loves power? Maybe that's why he doesn't want the matrix reset, maybe he'll have nothing after it's restarted and he'll have to build everything from scratch. Isn't that worth crossing swords with the one for? Maybe that's why he collects his henchmen, trying to find someone that can defeat neo? Also, thinking about the (enter the matrix) trailer. But doesn't the place where Neo and smith fight look a lot like the construct sparring program?

musclebrain

Fri, 13 Jun 2003 14:11:52 -0500

I think I read this before but seeing you guys wonder how he sensed the sentinels, destroyed them and fell into a coma and the Oracle knowing his dreams seems to be due to him always being 'jacked up' in some way. Undoubtedly it occurred after he 'became' Smith at the end of the first film. Nothing mystical but like Smith probably is always in some way wired to the matrix. Of course I do not know how this happens exactly but Neo and Smith do not go into the actual matrix or a connected to it. They just have a vague notion of it where they can interact with Zion and the Matrix. No powers or extra abilities just a leap in consciousness. Mmm or maybe not, I think I'm way off.

eyehand

Fri, 13 Jun 2003 10:28:54 -0500

In Daniel 2; Nebuchadnezzar says "I have dreamed a dream, and my spirit was troubled to know the dream." Daniel's interpretation of Nebuchadnezzar's dream prophecies the coming of Christ. Some Guy: Neo never went to the source. He was given the option by the Architect to go to the source if he chose the door to the right. Neo chose the door to the left.

Some Guy

Fri, 13 Jun 2003 01:22:43 -0500

Morpheus: I have dreamed a dream, and now that dream has gone from me. There was a question somewhere, why Morpheus actually says that, watching the Nebuchadnezzar burn. I think that the "dream, he have dreamed" was the Prophecy of the Oracle, that One will stop the War once he reaches the Core.(isn't that worth dying for?) He did not totally believe in what Neo said him after met the Architect - that the Prophecy is just another loop of control. But Neo entered the core - Morpheus saw that, and now that the machines have destroyed the ship, it became painfully evident that the War was not over... Sorry guys, if that is too obvious:)

TruthBeTold

Thu, 12 Jun 2003 19:02:11 -0500

Zionites cannot enter the matrix because they do not have the "brain jack" simple as that... The agents do not have superior knowledge of all events in the matrix, they too are pawns...

Evil_Inside

Thu, 12 Jun 2003 17:39:19 -0500

rhia: Rember in the first movie Tank mentions that he was born in Zion, so Neo and Trinity's kid(if they had one) would not be the first. I got the impression from the movies that the matrix was life(earth) and that Zion was the afterlife(Heaven). eyehand: I don't think Neo's sensing the machines is due to his having some kind of phsyic abilities. In Enter the Matrix, the Oracle tells Niobe that Neo touched the source and separated his mind from body and he is somewhere between the real world and the matrix. This could allow him to experience both worlds at once. This would explain how he was able to save Trinity's life at the end of Reloaded.

rhia

Thu, 12 Jun 2003 16:12:53 -0500

has anyone thought of the possibility of trinity and neo having the first created being instead of a "grown" being. also..if the movie is based somewhat on the bible, the matrix and zion could be like heaven and earth..two different dimensions two different purposes for each to exist..just something to think and expand on..

Fabio

Thu, 12 Jun 2003 14:44:39 -0500

All, anybody has the dialog of Neo and Oracle? Regards, F�bio

eyehand

Thu, 12 Jun 2003 13:48:59 -0500

Alot of people are saying that if Neo is a machine then that would explain how he "sensed" the coming of the sentinels. Can someone please explain how machines can "sense" other machines? Are machines psychic? I hope the W. Bros don't introduce the paranormal into what has been refreshly hardcore sci-fi films. That would be much worse than the matrix-in-a-matrix scenario.

Evil_inside

Thu, 12 Jun 2003 13:32:30 -0500

I can't accept the idea of Neo being a machine. There are way too many references in the movies of him being "only human": The scene when he awakens in the pod and is disconnected from the matix by the spider-like machine. The fact that his muscles have attrofied(sp?) and must undergo intense surgery by Tank. None of this would be neccessary if he was a machine. Wouldn't Tank notice he was a machine. He bleeds. The first time he jumps, he falls and winds up bleeding from the mouth. The agents make comments about him being "only human". Wouldn't they know he's a machine? I'm not a genetic engineer(but I did stay a Holiday Inn last night) but he is my theory on Neo as a human anomoly: Chew on this: Neo is simply a human being that is on a higher level than the rest of the human race because of an anomoly caused by advanced genetic engineering. He is THE anomoly, a mutation if you will. He is the 6th version of this anomoly which gets more redefined every generation. This is caused by the fact that humans are no longer born "we are grown" - Morpheus. The machines "grow" humans, probably from a batch of cells with a predermined genetic makeup in order to maximize power output, lifespan, strength, acceptance to the matrix, etc., to ensure maximum performance within the matrix, in stead of breeding them which can produce more radomized results and minimize efficiency. This "The One" anamoly occurs because the genetic pool from which humans in the matrix are grown has become narrower in variation because breeding has not occured since the machine gained control. The only breeding that has taken place is in Zion, where people can mate and a new generation can be born with a more varied genetic pool. Ever notice that Tank and Dozer never enter the matrix? Are the children of Zion less powerful than those "grown" by the machines to power the matrix? So far all we know is that those "awakened" minds have the ability to bend the rules of the matrix - the ones born in Zion have not been mentioned. Neo's ability to destroy sentinels in the real world probably stems from his being "grown" by the machines and having been connected to the matrix for so long. This along with his destruction of agent Smith(which gave him more knowledge of how the matrix works) has taken him to a new level - a level never reached by any of the previous "ones".

TruthBeTold

Thu, 12 Jun 2003 12:22:58 -0500

Lance, they are organic moving, super intelligent machines...if man can invent sunlights...I'm pretty sure Machines can do the same damn thing

Lance

Thu, 12 Jun 2003 11:48:29 -0500

Major flaw with the Matrix : Why do the machines even need humans? If they needed energy, why not build nuclear power plants and mine for uranium or plutonium? Humans require far too much care and probably use up as much energy as they generate. I'd like to see the source code used to create the virtual Matrix world. How many programmers would it take and what operating system does it run under? Since virtually all energy on earth originates from the Sun. How do the machines feed the humans to keep them alive? All nutrients would have to come from the sun. But the sun has been blocked out for hundreds of years. So where do the machines get the nutrients from? I think there would have been a better source of energy. Why would the machines want to continue their existence anyway? To ensure the survival of their species? After all, they are just bits of metal with circuit boards.

Michael

Thu, 12 Jun 2003 05:24:33 -0500

Cris, I agree with you - I don't think that when Morpheus says in the trailer "He fights for us" that he is talking about Neo. I think (and time will tell the truth) that he is really talking about either Neo or Seraph. But as we all know - trailers are spliced together in a way sometimes to give just the opposite meaning of what the movie is about. The very nature of a trailer is to entice and close the sale.

Bixie

Thu, 12 Jun 2003 01:55:45 -0500

He may well have sensed them in the first movie. Don;t forget, he had only just been 'freed' from the matrix and was no doubt feeling all sorts of strange emotions. Plus, he had no knowledge of what sentinals were so how would he know what he was sensing?

uh...

Thu, 12 Jun 2003 01:49:25 -0500

so if Neo's a machine then why didn't he "sense" the sentinels when he saw them in the first movie.....he just stood there with his "whoa" look...

Thu, 12 Jun 2003 01:45:29 -0500

Bonus fact, the Oracle is not really a psychic with the power to see the future, She is an intuitive computer program created to calculate precise probabilities in order to come to an understanding of human nature to find out exactly what the human mind is ready to accept as reality. Choice was her brilliant revelation. And so the machines now now that as long as the humans have a choice in whatever they do (that includes the choice of accepting the Matrix or live as part of La Resistance in Zion) but nevertheless, how could a computer program be aware of a dream that occurred outside of the Matrix? Could a computer program truly develop psychic ability and forsee the future? Considering the dream was about what would happen in the Matrix, only complicates the logic of it all. Was Trinity's escapade in the Matrix leading to her death calculated by the Architect ahead of time? If fate really is that mathematical in the Matrix universe...well...all I'm saying is that the Machines seems to have reality both inside the Matrix and out...under their belt....again...is the Matrix in a Matrix idea so far fetched? it would explain alot

Bixie

Thu, 12 Jun 2003 01:38:00 -0500

I'm a late comer...only just seen Reloaded, so my apologies if I'm covering old ground. Have to get this out of my head...kudos to Rio et al who have explored aspects of these themes already... Neo is a machine Neo is effectively a bug fix program which trawls through the matrix in various cycles continually refining the anomaly and helping the Architect weed it out. His matrix manifestation is as �the One� but his physical manifestation is as Thomas Anderson, who is really a machine designed to resemble a human. This allows him to sense other machines (ie. sentinels) and disable them with am EMP burst, which also knocks him out of commission. The Architect is obsessed with perfection. Like all control freaks, his arrogance drives him and he cannot abide the merest hint of imperfection in his perfect creation. In order to perfect the matrix, the Architect needs to understand why humans are so flawed, ie. their need for choice and love. To do this, machines were created which are virtually identical to humans and inserted into the real world to act as spies, learning to become human and analysing human behaviour which will be later downloaded to the source code to help perfect the matrix. The Oracle is an old program, now gone rogue, who was created to understand the humans� need for choice and love, and possibly when she gained this understanding she developed a fondness for humans. She is motivated out of a desire for a truce between humans and machine. That is why the Architect hates her so much. Although Neo was designed by the machines as a way to completely control humans, she sees his potential for bringing down the matrix and forging an alliance between humans and machines. Smith wants the matrix to persist because now that he is freed from its rules, he can take it over and make it his own. He knows what Neo�s purpose is and he sees the potential for the matrix to be taken down, but now that Neo has freed him, he sees the potential for himself to take over the matrix, which would allow him to remake it anyway he sees fit, or for him to eliminate humanity all together, seeing as he hates humans so much. The Merovingian wants power. He is an old rogue program who is �not doing what it is supposed to� and has a vested interest in keeping the matrix running. He doesn�t want to see Neo succeed either so captures the keymaker to prevent access to the machine mainframe. He hates the Oracle because she is trying to help Neo and the humans. Bane is also a machine. When Smith infected his Matrix persona, he also infected his machine persona. Bane�s matrix manifestation is now as a Smith clone but his physical manifestation, also a machine, was disabled by the EMP burst he prematurely triggered. Also explains why Bane is obsessed with killing Neo. Neo has the potential to bring the matrix down so Smith wants him dead, or at least assimilated into his own code. It may be possible for machines to access the matrix without jacking in, as humans do. If their source code is housed in their machine bodies, they must have some way of interfacing with the matrix. This would suggest that all rogue programs are not necessarily contained in the machine mainframe and are able to avoid detection and deletion by agents. Control theme � the Architect is obsessed with completely controlling humans. Although the machines have become quite efficient at destroying Zion, clearly it is an inconvenience and a chore. He is obsessed with finding a way to eliminate the need for human flaws and perfecting his creation. � Neo has to be a rogue program. If he was under the control of the machines or followed their rules he would behave in predictable patterns and the machines would not learn anything about humans. He has to genuinely believe he is a human. Presumably the previous six incarnations of Neo were assimilated back in to the source code because they had learned all they could and the matrix was rebooted to begin the bug fix cycle all over. � Neo asks the councillor if we control machines or do they control us. Humans and machines must find a balance in order to live together, and this is Neo�s real purpose. Purpose theme � everything has a purpose but some things aren�t doing what they�re supposed to be doing. Neo is a rogue program by design, which explains why he can do the things he can do in the matrix. As a machine, he would be programmed to truly believe he is human so as to seamlessly blend into human society. � In Animatrix: The Second Renaissance, we see machines who are not only disguised to look like humans, but who genuinely believe they are human. The woman being attacked by the group of men is bashed with a hammer and cries out, �Please stop�I�m real!� � In Animatrix: The Second Renaissance, �[m]achines extensively studied the frail protein-based bodes of man� so could conceivably have manufactured machines which would resemble humans even under close medical scrutiny. � In Animatrix: Kid, the kid is also a machine. He died in real life which supposedly set him free from the matrix, but because he�s a machine, like Neo, he can�t really die. That�s why he can sense when Neo arrives (�He always knows�). Machines can sense each other. We have already been told that he has a major part to play in Revolutions, but what this could be is anyone�s guess. He could be the next incarnation of the One, but that would mean Neo would have to die�

Spyder

Thu, 12 Jun 2003 00:50:32 -0500

I'm sorry...but when Persephone says that "he was once like you" as she tries to get a kiss from Neo to me anyway...everyone else seems to have gotten something else from that...but me...I saw it as meaning that the Mervowhatchamacallit was once like Neo in the sense that he was once in love with Persephone like Neo is with Trinity. She was asking for a kiss...and not just any kiss...a kiss of true love...a kiss that Neo would only give Trinity...a kiss that without words successfully declares that he loves her...Persephone just wanted to be loved like she used to. I don't see the Mervin..uh..whatever guy as the One...the look on his face as Neo did his superman stuff did not mirror that of a man who was at one time in a similar position....and if he had been the one...why not anymore? Based on the mythos of the Matrix universe that was explained to us in Reloaded, Computer programs are designed for one purpose and that purpose varies from program to program depending on what the Matrix requires to have done. When these programs are no longer required or outdated by an upgrade then they must report back to the Source where they are recycled information. If the Merovignian...uh..yeah...had been the one he would have to return to the Source so a new "one" could be form. And even if that weren't the case and the Merovignian refused not to go back to the source (which he obviously did not do since he was a renegade program) then why wouldnt' he still have the same abilities as he had if he were indeed the "One". That is why I refuse to see this french guy as a One....besides...Neo is a man who is hooked up to the Matrix, not a computer program that we know of yet....and the only way he could be a computer program is if the Matrix in a Matrix idea was true. Nevertheless, I find it interesting that no one has referenced the "original" one who freed the first of them, which version was he? The fifth One? The Fourth? Regardless, he was a man also like Neo, so unless the Machines have created a cybernetic organism that looks and acts just like humans that they jack into the Matrix as a representation of the one to weed out the 1% Then the only way Neo could be the sixth version of the One and still exists as a supposed man would be that, once again, that the Matrix in a Matrix idea is for real. I'm not saying that I really want the Matrix in a Matrix idea to be what is revealed, I just don't see any plausible explanation for anything otherwise.

rhia

Wed, 11 Jun 2003 20:05:11 -0500

i have a question more than a comment..everyone has discussed Zion, the Matrix, and The One..i have a problem with this...the architect tells Neo he is the 6th one. now it is Neos time to pick 7 men and 14 (?) women to rebuild Zion. Were the other "Neos" destroyed or does Neo not remember doing this before, or was it a whole other person/program, like the french guy perhaps. as for Neo being a Messiah..hmmm, if you want to look at it through religious eyes, i dont really see it like that..i think he is a program that can over-ride all other programs..basically the hard-drive..he saved trinity from death..he manipulated the system to bring her back..he didnt actually save her, he reprogrammed the file..just my opinion..love to hear others.

de Rais

Wed, 11 Jun 2003 18:09:20 -0500

It is time children to stop analising over the matrix and wake up to the fact that you are all indeed trapped in one. We can help you to wake up. But we can only show you the truth. http://www.23rdian.org 23 people to make a new sion.

TruthBeTold

Wed, 11 Jun 2003 17:41:05 -0500

Did I mention that I hate the Matrix within a Matrix idea? :-/ Its soooo....Blah

eyehand

Wed, 11 Jun 2003 17:32:57 -0500

TruthBeTold: I like your posting. I just have issues with some of its' uncoroborated assumptions. "The councilor is one of the �original� 23 (seven men and sixteen women) . . . " Morpheus said in his speach at the temple that they had been at war with the machines for a 100 years. The councilor did not look that old. Unless of course the people in the matrix universe live alot longer than we do. Not an impossibility. "The machines need the humans for a power source in the matrix (duh). . ." The only coroboration of this that we have is a statement by Morpheus in the first movie. It seems to me that for a society as advanced as the both the machines and humans are in the matrix universe they could come up with plenty of power a lot easier that farming humans. The humans don't seem to have a power problem. Some examples of power with today's technology that don't rely on solar power are: Wind Tidal Geothermal Nuclear Fission Nuclear Fusion (limited) Fossil Fuels I like the idea someone had earlier. That the matrix needs the collective processing capability of human brains. That without human brains the matrix in crippled. The Architect did say "there are levels of survival we are prepared to accept." Also the Architect said "The function of the One is now to return to the source allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry ..." Dissemination: 1. To scatter widely, as in sowing seed. 2. To spread abroad; promulgate: disseminate information. Where else to disseminate but to the other human minds in the matrix? "The matrix is a clockmaker's universe..." I really like this analogy. I don't think Neo's ability to sense other programs is one he got from Smith. The Operators (i.e. Tank) could pickup on slight weirdnesses in the matrix that was a precusor to an agent appearing or even when the matrix changes the parameters like the scene with the black cat in the first movie. I think Neo has become very sensitive to the changes in the code of the matrix caused by sentient programs as they start to affect it. This would also explain why he could sense the sentinels in the "real world". Also there is no reason why the "real world" matrix has to operate with the same set of rules and parameters as in the main matrix.

Null

Wed, 11 Jun 2003 15:43:54 -0500

Cris, I agree with you. Smith knows that Neo's purpose is to reset the Matrix. Smith no longer has a purpose. So he wants revenge. Also, Smith in the original Matrix states something to the effect of "I hate this place, reality, zoo, whatever you want to call it." Smith wants to be free of the Matrix. He has come to the realization, that the only way to be free is to crash the system, prevent Neo from resetting and reloading the Matrix program. This time through the loop though, something is different and new(Neo). Smith is aware of it, "just as expected, well not exactly", after the first fight with the upgraded agents. Oracle, "You made a believer out of me". Architect, "While the others experienced this in a very general way your experience is far more specific". The loop controls have worked for 5 iterations, and allowed for a stable Matrix. This time it appears that the whole Matrix programming will destabilize (i.e. system crash). Which will either free humanity or kill everyone. Now that would be a surprise ending! The human species wiped out! Highly doubt this type of ending, we humans don't deal well with unhappy endings. I doubt that this puzzle will be solved before Revolutions is released. But it's fun to speculate. I'm looking for people to find more hints in the game, that may assist. Later...

Toly

Wed, 11 Jun 2003 14:43:59 -0500

It's been interesting to read all these theories about The Matrix. One comment I want to add is for those who say that the machines need humans in Zion to find the one. How exactly these people find the one? How did Morpheus find Neo? In the first Matrix after the agents interrogated Neo, he wakes up in his bed and receives a phone call from Morpheus. Neo asks "What's happening to me?" to which Morpheus replies "Your are the one, Neo. You see, you may have been looking for me for the last few years but I have spent my entire life looking for you". By saying that, we have to assume that Morpheus has spent not years but decades searching for the one. But there's no mentioning of how he found Neo. What if he simply wouldn't found him?Therefore, how machines can be so confident that humans in Zion will actually find the one? Maybe someone can explain this to me.

cris

Wed, 11 Jun 2003 12:36:22 -0500

What do you all think of this? In the Revolutions trailer, when Morpheus states that, "He fights for us", he is referring to Smith. At the beginning of the Burly Brawl in Reloaded, Smith uses his speech to tell Neo that he "is here to take from you what was taken from me. I'm here to take your purpose". Now we all know (or actively assume) that Neo's purpose is to end the Matrix and free the humans. Thus it seems clear that Smith wants to stop Neo from reaching that goal. However, Smith also wants to see the end of the Matrix (as we know from the first Matrix) because he cannot stand living inside it. As a program, purpose is all Smith knows, so in a programs' thought process, the ultimate revenge for a perceived wrong would be to destroy anothers' purpose. So is it possible that Smith wants to destroy the Matrix himself, thus freeing himself from it and destroying Neo's purpose in the process? When Morpheus says, "He fights for us," he sees that Smith is in fact fighting somehow against the machines and the Matrix. However, the way Smith seems to be fighting against the machines is by creating a replicating virus that systematically destroys the individual humans inside the Matrix. Thus he is destroying both the Matrix and the human race at the same time. So Smith would have to be stopped to save humans, machines or both. Possibly (as is hinted in Reloaded), man and machine will have to figure out how to exist together if either hopes to survive. (Along the same lines, Smith may know that Neo's purpose is really to simply start the Matrix process over again. As that clearly leaves him stuck in the Matrix for another revolution, he wants to make sure Neo does not accomplish that goal, thus crashing the system completely. He must keep Neo from "dissemenating the code he carries" (as the Architect says) so the "cataclysmic system crash" will occur, destroying the Matrix and freeing Smith forever.) Any thoughts?

Evil_Inside

Wed, 11 Jun 2003 10:59:42 -0500

TruthBetold: Very interesting, I agree with all your points and so far think you have the closet theories to what is happening in the Matrix story. Martin: There is alot of story in Enter The Matrix. The game has been described by the creators as a "Third Movie". If you are a fan of the movies, you will enjoy this game alot. Personally, I believe the game plays a very large role in the overall plot of Matrix universe. There are several clues to the nature of Matrix universe within the game, along with an expanded look into key locations in the movies. I also believe(and hope) that there are several hidden clues in the game that yet to be revealed, and when eventually revealed, will shed light on some of the questions the movies have invoked. In order to fully understand the matrix universe, I think we really need to consider all sources. Enter the Matrix needs to be treated as a third movie - an interactive movie. The animatrix needs to considered as both a prequel(the second renassaince(sp?)) and additional plot elements(final flight of the osiris, kid's story, etc.). All of these movies/games/shorts contain clues to the overall story. BTW, has anyone found any easter eggs on the Animatrix DVD yet?

Oliver Jones

Wed, 11 Jun 2003 08:46:40 -0500

The whole point in re-building Zion is so that the architect can begin the process again of finding The One. Each time he has previously found The One - he has become one step closer to finding more about the anomaly in the matrix and hence erradicating it. He says to Neo that he must download his information to the source. This will keep happening with further 'Ones' until the architect has produced his perfect mathematical equation.

TruthBeTold

Wed, 11 Jun 2003 05:36:23 -0500

This is the afforementioned post (http://blogs.salon.com/0001797/2003/05/19.html) Pretty damn interesting and clear...Read On The Matrix Reloaded I just saw the Matrix Reloaded over the weekend and it is well worth the time and money. Call up Fandango and go see it. Not only is it visually stunning, and filled with heart-pounding excitement, it is also intellectually stimulating in the way that good sci-fi can be. (And, I suspect, the way philosophy used to be way, way back in the day.) What follows is a series of explorations of the meaning of certain scenes as well as how the matrix hangs together as a whole. Don�t read any further if you want to avoid spoilers! First off: why stage the scene with the councilor? The councilor is one of the �original� 23 (seven men and sixteen women) that were removed from the matrix by the previous �One� to provide for the refounding of Zion. He is privy to the knowledge that the humans and the machines are interdependent and that interdependency is mediated by the matrix. The machines need the humans for a power source in the matrix (duh) and they also need Zion as a spill valve for the 1% who reject the matrix but most importantly they need Zion as a place to nurture the One. The One is needed by the machines because only the One can reload the matrix. The reason for this is explored in the conversation with the Architect. Without the one, no matrix and eventually no machines, at least not in the style to which they have become accustomed�. If the machines need the One and hence Zion then why do they destroy it over and over? Zion represents a potential threat and a danger to the machines that cannot be allowed to reach critical mass. It is a threat both in terms of the havoc free humans wreak within the matrix and potentially so (although far less so) in physical terms. Also, realize that much of the matrix and the programs that roam it are not subject to �reprogramming� � the matrix is a clockmaker�s universe � once set in motion the dynamics cannot be altered. So the logic of the programs within the matrix is to preserve the fabric of the matrix at all costs � including the complete destruction of Zion. This is true despite the fact that the architect and oracle realize that preservation of the matrix �as is� is not possible. So the agents are necessary (without them the matrix would collapse before it could be reloaded) but they are ultimately doomed to failure in their aim of preserving the matrix �as is� � the reload process is ultimately necessary. One can speculate that eventually �static� builds up within the system rendering it more and more vulnerable to crash � hence the need to reload. But the reload cannot be accomplished by the machines themselves � it is not simply a question of programming or mathematics. The machines require something that they cannot produce and something they can�t quite understand but something forced upon them by the nature of the material with which they are forced to work with � humans. They require an example of free human volition to reboot the system � think of it as the broadcast of one form of static to cancel out another: the insistent static of millions of humans �trying� (without realizing it) to wake up� and the machines cannot produce or reproduce human choice or volition � they need the One to do this for them. The inexplicable nature of free will is needed by the machines to �tune� the matrix, thereby providing for a degree of stability that degrades over time as the irreducible static of human �resistance� (unconsciously) builds up within the matrix again. Why obliterate Zion? The destruction of Zion � like its refounding � serves multiple purposes. The destruction of Zion of course prevents humans from progressing to the point where they might actually pose a physical threat to the machines and also helps mystify the true nature of the matrix system to the majority of those in Zion, but the key reason the destruction of Zion is necessary is to coerce the One into willingly reloading the matrix � because the One is then faced with either reloading the matrix or the extinction of humanity. But Zion must be refounded in order to permit the matrix to be reloaded once again � and as before the reload occurs in despite the efforts of the matrix� agents. Were the sex scenes really necessary? Some of the scenes in Zion came across poorly, perhaps the least well done of any of the scenes in either movie. At one point I was reminded of the cheesy subterranean human community from the original �Planet of the Apes� movies. And yet both the sex scene (which was classy and hot) and the religious ceremony were necessary for a number of reasons. At the very least the rite/dance/orgy demonstrated how young most adults were � at least 20 years younger than the councilors�hmmm. The sex scene with Neo and Trinity not allowed the directors to foreshadow Neo�s nightmare, creating dramatic tension, but it also illustrated in a way words simply cannot (and hence in a way in which movies can excel) the difference between the machines and humans � a theme again underlined by the mosh-pit rite. Contrast the relations between Neo and Trinity with Merovingian and Persephone. The former couple experiences a bond that � despite its almost painfully embodied nature, what with all those sockets � is almost artistic in its realization of authentic love. The latter couple, however, in spite of all the polish, panache and elegance the matrix can conjure, are revealed as worse than children playing at love � because they have no true concept or experience of feeling or emotion. Sure, they know how to manipulate the sensations of others � and they are expert in so doing � but in so doing they are like bored children pulling the wings off a fly. That is why those two maligned scenes � involving the cake and the kiss � are so necessary to the film, for they expose � in a visceral manner that the Architect�s speech can only render as dry logos � the complete failure of any of the machines� attempts to grasp emotion and choice. Merovingian has all the outward appearance of refinement, culture and education but his marvelous abilities with regard to language are wasted on meaningless tongue-twisters and the cultivation of curse-words, just his prodigious skill at program-writing is expended on the basest form of manipulation. And unlike Mouse from the first movie, Merovingian is not even acting on instinct or urges � he is merely playing at having such urges. The same can be said for the Italian eye-candy Persephone, but in her case her outfit speaks even more loudly than her banal adolescent desire for a kiss. Despite her outfit�s obvious advantage in revealing her cybernetically perfect figure, there is something askew � the color, texture, cut � that, as with Merovingian�s �manners,� marks her as a monstrosity. Not because of what she is, but because what she attempts to pretend to be. Both are vampires for human feeling, hungering for what they cannot experience and do not even understand. Needless to say their �relationship� is equally devoid of any authentic feeling. What of the Oracle � is she on �our side� or the machines? The Oracle is the �intuitive� program originally designed to probe the human psyche. As such she comes closest to being able to realize the necessary means for integrating humans into the architectonic of the Architect�s matrix. She seeks to fulfill the �prophecy� as a means of reloading the matrix, which from her perspective (as well as that of the Architect) is best for both machine and man. The machines continue to enjoy the energy and diversions afforded by the inherently unstable matrix and the humans avoid extinction. Hence the Oracle is not on the human�s side any more (or any less) than a shepherd is on the flocks� side. She guides the herd as best she can and accepts that a culling of the flock as necessary for its ultimate maintenance � and for her (and the other machines) ultimate well-being. As for Neo making her a �believer,� I interpret this as the Oracle acknowledging the distinct possibility that Neo will refuse the �proper� door (the potential of which even the Architect acknowledges) hence �redeeming� the prophecy � but in apocalyptic finality. Her sereneness in the face of such a potential reflects her understanding of the dependence of the matrix upon the One � it�s simply out of her hands. Why doesn�t the Architect simply trick Neo into going into the door he wants? The Architect could trick Neo, but in so tricking him the Architect would be deprived of what he needs from Neo. So the Architect is dependent upon Neo (and the humans both in the matrix and in Zion) in a way similar to that which the councilor hinted at early on in the movie. Sure, he could trick Neo, but that would only result in shutting down the matrix, because what he needs from the One is something he cannot simulate or provide, despite his mastery of mathematics. Even in its �unconscious� state, the human psyche �resists� the matrix. What is needed to overcome this resistance � if only temporarily � is an instance of choice and acceptance provided by the One, that no doubt the Architect propagates or amplifies throughout the matrix, influencing the unconscious millions who are unconsciously �resisting.� For whatever reason, the Architect has found that no mathematical formula or chemical reaction allows him to reproduce or simulate the �feeling� of willing consent or choice. Hence the Architect cannot fool the One (nor the millions others � at least for very long) but must actually enlist the One�s willing consent � if only through means of blackmail � as the means of preserving humanity not only within the matrix but also in a newly (re)founded Zion. So the statistically predictable anomaly becomes the savior of humanity � and the matrix as well. As you have no doubt guessed, I don�t share the enthusiasm that some have for the theory that Zion is actually another matrix within the matrix. Granted, this would explain some of the issues explored above (as well as the zapping of the sentinels at the end), but it would do so in such a manner that renders certain aspects of the film not only puzzling but unnecessary. One could ask, for example, why � if Zion is merely another matrix �does Agent Smith only replace Bane�s psyche rather than his (presumably, under this theory) residual body image? More importantly, why would the machines need to the stage the whole Oracle-prophecy rigmarole? It would be one thing to send the �free� humans on a wild goose chase, but why � if Zion is actually a new and improved matrix that is as yet wholly perfect in its functioning � is the One needed to reload the matrix? Why would the matrix need to be reloaded if it is working as planned (indeed, better than any within the matrix have dared imagine)? Hence the �dual-matrix� theory, although attractive to some as a means of explaining the destruction/refounding of Zion, actually introduces insuperable difficulties when it comes to explaining the overriding necessity of the movie � the need to reload the matrix. Think of the extraordinary lengths that the extra-matrix programs (the Architect and the Oracle) go in order to promote Neo�s reloading of the matrix despite the degree to which it runs counter to the programming of the matrix itself� and then ask how the dual matrix accounts for this behavior. It doesn�t. But let�s explore those two anomalies � Agent Smith imprinting a human and Neo zapping the sentinels. Obviously, these two events are meant to represent a mirror-image of each other, and both stem from the entanglement between the two characters at the end of the original film. Somehow a little of each was imprinted on the other � Smith neglects his programming to become precisely what he accused humanity of being, a virus, and Neo can already �sense� the presence of sentient programs within the matrix at the beginning of the second movie. Each somehow has gained an �in� to the other�s essential reality � Smith�s sentience is able to commandeer human flesh and Neo�s �brain-power� is able to command (or at least short-circuit) machines. Neither example requires a �second matrix� to work � although that would be an easy (to my mind too simplistic) solution. No, what I think is happening is that each has become attuned to the essential nature of the other in a way foreign for all machines and humans before them. Again, Merovingian and Persephone provide a visceral contrast � not only to humans but to Smith, who feels true emotion, even if it is only hatred, rather than the pretense of emotion. Smith grasps for real power, he doesn�t play at being powerful in false chateau in a false world. Likewise one can contrast Neo to Morpheus, who � for all his courage and tenacity � utterly and totally misunderstands the true nature of the matrix and the aims of the machines behind it. It is Neo, not Morpheus, who correctly divines the identity of the Oracle and Neo, not Morpheus, who is able to pierce the dream of prophecy � the most narcoleptic of all the illusions spun by the machines, and it only consisted of an appealing story: no images, smells, tastes or sensations! Smith and Neo are not in a second matrix, they are transcending the matrix as the primary human/machine interface and in so doing experiencing the power and vulnerabilities associated with their adversary. How this plays out is no doubt a large part of the Matrix Revolutions. I can hardly wait! In addition, maybe that explains why it seems Neo and Smith are going to fight one on one in the third film...Perhaps the Smith Neo fights is the one processed through Bane... So this Human/Encoded dual duel should be interesting...

TruthBeTold

Wed, 11 Jun 2003 05:20:30 -0500

By Plausible I meant easiest to assume...so I used the wrong word...but I like your Ideas "I Ran Over Your Dog" and I really hope that the Matrix within a Matrix does not exist...thats just stupid and anticlimactic

Grand Masta Flask aka I Ran Over your Dog

Wed, 11 Jun 2003 03:35:39 -0500

I've finally found it. A guy who agrees with me, and is so much more articulate in saying it that I am. Read this guy's article "Matrix within a Matrix" believers and "Mootrix/CockTrix" believers alike will thank me later. http://blogs.salon.com/0001797/2003/05/19.html

Michael

Wed, 11 Jun 2003 02:51:15 -0500

"Maybe the machines could have hooked up trillions of cockroaches to a "CockTrix." " Bwa ha ha ha ha - thanks Grand Masta Flash - I really enjoyed that!

I Ran Over Your Dog

Wed, 11 Jun 2003 01:58:18 -0500

Dear TruthBeTold: Matrix within a Matrix is NOT the "most plausible solution yet." Neo can "feel" the machines as a side effect of his connection with agent smith. I guarantee agent smith can sense machines in the real world (duh: that's why the machines didn't kill him (Bane) and he was the sole survivor). This sensing the machines and channeling that ability and using all of his energy to destroy the machines is what agent smith gave him in their shared moment at the end of Matrix one. I will bet anyone my house that matrix within a matrix isn't what's going on. They've spent two movies and the climax of the second movie explaining exactly how and why the matrix exists. They're not going to waste such a genious storyline on "der.. its a matrix within a matrix. lalala" HELL NO

TruthBeTold

Tue, 10 Jun 2003 23:31:15 -0500

The matrix within a matrix Idea is far from stupid...its actually the most plausible explanation as of yet...but its just sooooo damn disappointing :-/ And that "He fights for us?!" better be about Neo because that would mean a lot of interesting stuff (well more interesting) is about to happen... And the sentinels were stopped in a fashion that wasn't like EMP, and wasn't like the bullet stopping effects. So maybe, just maybe there is a greater power running through Neo... Not like his Matrix bound abilities of flight and superspeed...but more simply his an ability to stop sentinels with a thought...I mean, he passed out and according to the Oracle in Enter the Matrix his mind lies between the "real" world and the Matrix... Its not as asinine an idea as you think. I mean the entire concept of the Matrix is Free your Mind... Having a Real world ability to stop AI is not too strange...i mean it is a FAKE universe. And also WHY DO YOU ALL REFER TO THE LAW OF ROBOTICS, THEY ARE NOT ROBOTS Robot means: n. 1. A mechanical device that sometimes resembles a human and is capable of performing a variety of often complex human tasks on command or by being programmed in advance. 2. A machine or device that operates automatically or by remote control. 3. A person who works mechanically without original thought, especially one who responds automatically to the commands of others. The AI operate on an intelligence above human they essentially evolved from Robot, to what they are now....A new 'species' simply trying to survive.

Spyder

Tue, 10 Jun 2003 22:23:27 -0500

uh...Cocktrix? Spice channel anyone?

Grand Masta Flash

Tue, 10 Jun 2003 20:17:09 -0500

Reason for no Mootrix: The only living organisms left after a catastrophic war and torching of the sky were probably cockroaches and the humans that somehow survived (surely they had a plan to survive after torching the sky). I doubt many cows lived when there was no sun to keep alive the plants that they eat and no bunkers for them to hide in with plenty of campbell's soup. Maybe the machines could have hooked up trillions of cockroaches to a "CockTrix." But not only would that not make a very good movie and probably not beat out the phantom menace in the summer of 1999, but cockroaches are harder to find than the much bigger humans- especially trillions of them. PAYCE

Spyder

Tue, 10 Jun 2003 18:12:54 -0500

Hey now folks. All this talk about the "Matrix in a Matrix" idea being dumb yet you go on to put out this theory that he's part machine or in some way mentally link on an electronic level to the machines. Sounds a little silly to me but whatever. Anyhow...there are reports of Neo going to the surface and battling the robots in their home territory in Revolutions. He wouldn't be able to do this without his computer generated powers so I'm still gonna say that the "real" world is just as fake as the Matrix. The Wachoski's wanted to create a comic book hero on a more plausible level which they succeeded in doing by having Neo capable of his actions by having him be in a false reality manipulated by the mind. Taking Neo's ability and bringing them into the real world...or making him a machine...or making him in link with the robot signal is a little cartoony for me...

kelly berkey

Tue, 10 Jun 2003 17:52:51 -0500

I am so new to this, but here goes: I love Neo. I want to have his child. I have started to feel like my life has become part of a "real world" matrix. I can't determine where the movie ends and my sad little life begins. i would love to have some new friends that might understand my plight and show some empathy. Anyone out there???

martin

Tue, 10 Jun 2003 17:41:07 -0500

Morpheus - The god of dreams in Ovid's Metamorphoses. Actually, (having just read the book) Morpheus was a son of sleep who was able to take on the appearance of anyone he wished. I'm also surprised you didn't include reloaded in that list of things. Anyways, I've been of the opinion that reloaded refers to this restart of the matrix, and revolutions is a mention of the drastic change this evolution of the matrix is gonna take. Also on the point of the "mootrix" :) The stories from the comics section by poppy z brite and neil gaiman give excellent explanations of why they might need to use humans. That many human brains networked together must form one hell of a super computer. Perhaps that's where all the code the machines need runs from? I mean neo worked for a software company, they don't say what the software company did. Perhaps they were helping to build more efficient code for the machines/agents. I'd be very surprised if this wasn't addressed at all, perhaps not in the film but maybe in something of the side projects. Evil Inside -> It's scary how much of that comes from Enter the Matrix, I can't help wonder what I'm missing. p.s. whoever asked about enter the matrix. It's a pants game but has 1 hour of very well done video. Best to rent it. p.p.s. Speaking of I, Robot. Alex Proyas of Dark City (A movie which the matrix has a suspiciously similar story line) and The Crow fame, is directing a film version of this.

Adam Hampshire

Tue, 10 Jun 2003 17:36:45 -0500

I'll be your bad boy cause I am naughty like that. Hee Hee.

austin hoffmann

Tue, 10 Jun 2003 17:26:46 -0500

Come on Bad Dog! Neo might just jump off the screen and kick your white booty. I feel like a virus. Everyone tells me I infect them with my sensuality - especially my boyfriend. Anywho, anybody got those NSYNC tickets yet!!!!! I am craving a boy band right about now!

Big Bad Mad Dog

Tue, 10 Jun 2003 17:14:56 -0500

Neo is a Big Bad Mad Dog, kind of like me! I don't think he is a machine but rather a virus, infecting everything around him. My last girlfriend said I was a virus, so again I am like Neo. I can't wait for the next movie to come out. I am so excited! Big Bad Mad Dog is out. Peace!

austin hoffmann

Tue, 10 Jun 2003 16:57:55 -0500

I wish someone could explain this movie to me. I've seen it 5 times now, and I still can't figure it out. By the way, if anyone out there has an extra NSYN ticket, please let me know. I'll travel anywhere to see them!

eyehand

Tue, 10 Jun 2003 16:33:19 -0500

Evil_Inside wrote; "Above someone mentioned that the machines can not kill humans because of Issac Asimov's "I Robot" rule. " This is refering to The Three Laws of Robotics as stated in Issac Asimov's book "I Robot". They are: 1. A robot may not injure a human being, or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm. 2. A robot must obey the orders given it by human beings except where such orders would conflict with the First Law. 3. A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law. In Robots and Empire (ch. 63), the "Zeroth Law" is extrapolated, and the other Three Laws modified accordingly: 0. A robot may not injure humanity or, through inaction, allow humanity to come to harm. But these laws only hold true in Issac Asimov's universe. In our universe and I believe in the universe of the Matrix, robots are not programmed with such inhibitions. Examples in today's world are robots such as cruise missiles or any other 'smart' weapon.

TruthBeTold

Tue, 10 Jun 2003 15:36:18 -0500

From Cinescape.com: The May/June issue of Creative Screenwriting contains a fascinating article for fans of THE MATRIX films. In Jeff Goldsmith's six-page examination, the writer looks back at the first and second drafts of THE MATRIX as written by the Wachowski brothers and before the story had coagulated into the shooting draft. The Wachowskis' earlier scripts contain a number of story elements that were junked from the final product audiences saw in theaters, including Neo leaving a girlfriend and little brother behind in the Matrix, an explanation about the origins of the Matrix from a sentient computer program named Eve and different action sequences. One of the more interesting ideas revealed to have been included in these MATRIX early drafts is the idea that the Matrix runs from the years 1980 to 2009, then "reloads" back to 1980 and begins the cycle once again. That should sound familiar to RELOADED fans. So could there be more ingredients from the discarded drafts we'll see return in THE MATRIX REVOLUTIONS? George Lucas did the same thing when he put together the story for THE PHANTOM MENACE, recycling ideas and names discarded from earlier drafts of STAR WARS. There is one intriguing idea mentioned in the Creative Screenwriting piece that could be used somewhere in REVOLUTIONS, namely Morpheus' revelation that the so-called real world may in fact be just another Matrix. It would certainly explain some of the unusual events we saw take place in RELOADED, such as Agent Smith's escape to the real world and Neo's new abilities. The MATRIX article appears in this month's Creative Screenwriting, on sale for $6.95.

Evil_Inside

Tue, 10 Jun 2003 14:51:21 -0500

Ok, I just watched the Revolutions trailer from the end of Enter the Matrix and here's something I noticed: There are scenes showing Seraph fighting a bald guy and another scene he is toting 2 hand guns. Could this be who Morpheus is refering to when he says "he fights for us" but the trailer was cut in a way to through us off? There is also a scene in which Niobe and Morpheus are piloting a havercraft together. She was the one who went to save the Neb, can it be that the is WAS the EMP she set off that destroyed the sentinel and the Logos was in fact in the same uncharted area as the Neb? The long haired bum who, in the one Enter the Matrix cutscene states "the last Zion lasted 72 hours" is also in the Revolutions trailer. What part does he play I wonder?

Evil_Inside

Tue, 10 Jun 2003 14:32:10 -0500

Wow, I read 85% of this page over the course of 2 days and have some ideas of my own I wish to share with you. I have seen both movies, all 9 Animatrix shorts and finished Enter the Matrix with the character Ghost. A few points: (1) Neo destroting the Sentinel: In the game, the ship Logos lead by capt. Niobe is fleeing large groups of Sentinels after sucessfully retrieving the data disc left in the Matrix by capt. Thadius. The logos is forced to take a route into an area that this is deemed "uncharted" and this is where the ship is landed, powered down and she sets off the EMP weapon. If I am not mistaken, and correct me on this if I'm wrong, but didn't the Nebuchanezzar take a course into an "uncharted" area at the end of Reloaded? If so, this would explain the EMP that destroyed the sentinels that where chasing the Nebuchanezzar. So Neo doesn't reallt destroy the sentinel. But he does "feel" them as he has changed. Is it possible that he is merely retaining something from Agent Smith that allows him to bring his ablilities into the real world. (2) The Hallway: The hallway is discribed as a backdoor to the Matrix and is the way that programs like the Oracle move around and survive. The system knows it and that's why agents are aware of it and can use it to apprehend those in the hallway. But why does it appear in the game as Spark's Training Construct? Is it the OS that all Matrix code and simulations must run on? Just another quest to think about. (3) Misc Things: Agent Smith calls himself "The Alpha to your Omgea" - is this part of the ying/yang thing? Above someone mentioned that the machines can not kill humans because of Issac Asimov's "I Robot" rule. This makes sense because along with the inherent nature of robots being built to serve man, robots can not kill them. This would explain why when freed from the Matrix in the first film, Neo is not killed but simply flushed into the sewers where he picked up by the Neb crew. Or could it be that the machine that disconnected Neo from the Matrix was actually being controlled by Tank or someone else remotely from the room in the matrix where they were tracking Neo from. This could mean that the real world can be altered from within the matrix and could explain a possible way for Neo to destory the sentinel be channeling his matrix abilities and using them in the real world. If robots and machines can not kill humans, then this can explain why humans are still keep as slaves. They are needed to survive, but why then in the "Second Renasainnce"(sp?) do machines kill humans during the great war? This kills that idea.

Adam Hampshire

Tue, 10 Jun 2003 11:24:48 -0500

Macca I mean jam! Peanut butter and strawberry jam sandwhich. Yumm.....

Michael

Tue, 10 Jun 2003 10:14:56 -0500

Ok . . Helo again from South Africa - maybe I am just in a timezone where I am the only one wanting to talk - so forgive me the endless monologue. Selected meanings as per www.dictionary.com Matrix - The womb. - A rectangular array of numeric or algebraic quantities subject to mathematical operations. - The network of intersections between input and output leads in a computer, functioning as an encoder or a decoder. - The totality of present-day computer networks. Zion - An idealized, harmonious community; utopia. - The heavenly Jerusalem; heaven. - an imaginary place considered to be perfect or ideal Neo - New; recent: Neolithic. - New and different: neoimpressionism. - New and abnormal: neoplasm. - New World: Neotropical. (hmmm . . . ) Bane - Fatal injury or ruin - A cause of harm, ruin, or death - A source of persistent annoyance or exasperation - A deadly poison. - A disease in sheep, commonly termed the rot. (hahahahaha . . . particularly poignant) Morpheus - The god of dreams in Ovid's Metamorphoses. Seraph - an angel of the first order Revolution - Return to a point before occupied, or to a point relatively the same; a rolling back; return; as, revolution in an ellipse or spiral (HAHAHAHA - I see all the mtrix-in-amatrix theorists cheering) - A sudden or momentous change in a situation - a drastic and far-reaching change in ways of thinking and behaving - a complete turn :o)

SpLiFz

Tue, 10 Jun 2003 09:48:45 -0500

Hey, Just thought id put a little pointlessness into the thread. I dont rekon the "Desrt of the real" is a form of matrix, i think that probibly "the matrix" is the only one. As for the whole choice thing about the 1% who dont except it and so on (mabye the difference between the Blue and red pills), those who reject the matrix are spat out and thrown out of the system (to live in zion). Smith is definately getting into the "real world" through that guy on the table (forgot his name, baine or somthing i dunno) but in the same way mabye Neos mind is now linked so closely withthe matrix that he can sperate his body and mind and perhaps enter the matrix without a physical link (as required before). Id want to know why he fell unconsious? Also interested in the ideas of Neo being a machine or code or somthing, could be, wouldnt surprise me then he and Trinity could have like a weird cyber baby to forge a peace between man and machine :) I rekon shes up the duff though (or will be soon) dont ask me why, just a feeling. in an odd, unconsius way it remined me of "wicked City" the manga movie about humans and demons. What do i know, just babbelling. SRy.Also sry bout spelling, cant be arsed goingback to check it :P

Michael

Tue, 10 Jun 2003 09:19:09 -0500

Ok, Somehow I just cant let this go - bear with me for my repeated posts but I found this to be some great comic relief. Credit to the author "Ultimately, would it not have been simpler for the machines just to wipe out humans altogether and use cows instead? Think how simple the Matrix, would have to be, just one big green field. It could have been called the �Mootrix�. Apologies, just needed an amusing respite from all this heavy thinking. Posted by P T on June 03, 2003 at 5:15 AM | " The quote although intended to be humour does raise an interesting question. Are the humans really being used as batteries or is that just wool over the eyes to the people of Zion. What is the real purpose of the matrix. Or as the 1st film asks - what is the matrix - Do you think we might get a different explanation as to the purpose and creators of the Matrix? Or must we just accept that it was an overlooked plot flaw. (Some plot flaw if the whole movie is based on it)

Michael

Tue, 10 Jun 2003 05:38:59 -0500

Just something interesting I read - credit to the author: Neo�s newfound powers in the Real, stem, I think, from an ability to manipulate the universe at the level of INFORMATION. Disabling the squiddies was a result of the Real yielding to Neo as ultimate programmer. He is becoming God the Hacker. Which brings me to my last point. Why did humans create the AI that turned hostile? Not to get a smarter fridge, surely? No, you create AI to overcome the limitations of human intelligence. What problems would you set it to solve? Faster than light travel, immortality? I suspect that the AI was created to accelerate human evolution by turning us into gods (through whatever sci-fi device, say, universe-as-code, you like). It raises the question of whether the matrix is hostile to humanity at all, or whether it isn�t just running exactly the program it was designed for - to teach humans how to transcend the contraints of the material environment. If Neo�s �struggle� with the matrix gives humanity the gift of godhood (in the Real), we may have to concede that the matrix was a moral good after all. Posted by Mark on May 27, 2003 at 9:27 PM |

Grand Masta Flash

Tue, 10 Jun 2003 04:08:31 -0500

It's obvious that the "desert of the real" isn't a second matrix. Neo is able to destroy the sentinels using his brain power because of the "connection" he has with agent smith. Neo gave smith something, and smith obviously gave neo something as well: The ability to sense the machines and by exhausing this newly attained brainpower, destroy them. Would you people please stop with the "matrix within a Matrix" nonsense. The W. bros. aren't gonna sell out and end their trilogy in such a ridiculous fashion.

Michael

Tue, 10 Jun 2003 02:53:24 -0500

I'm sorry, I can't accept that Neo is transmitting code from the chip in his brain to the squiddies. With what is he transmitting it? The precedent just hasn't been set. The whole matrix idea is totally built on having to be plugged in. If he is not plugged into the matrix, he can't have any link to it (except emotions, memory and experience) with which to stop the squiddies. Anything else would imply "superhuman", paranormal or Messiaic activity - which the Bros have made a point to disregard as possible. Also because I don't believe in the matrix within a matrix theory (please Andy and Larry - that would just be so dissapointing)I can only conclude that the squiddies were stopped externally, either from within the matrix or not (by someone who has a vested interest in seeing the One survive)- it's obvious he is being protected somehow as he cheats death as a rule - although not by a ship EMP - the way they were stopped was different from the EMP scenes we've seen before. That ending sequence happened very fast, showed very little and was meant to put us on the wrong path so we can be surprised and wowed in Revolutions. I do agree that Neo and Smith are at their very core linked, one, the alter egos of each other and on the same path - what that path is remnains to be seen. Neo has a purpose but doesn't know what it is. Smith has no purpose and is trying to find it, he is defining it through growth. Ultimately their purpose is one and the same. The destruction and rebuilding of the matrix. For some reason I am still left with the feeling that the voice over of Morpheus in the Revolutions preview saying "He fights for us" was a comment related to Smith, not Neo. Also, the Matrix will survive - this is what the matrix Online game is based on. I think Neo and Smith together will be the architects (if you will pardon the insinuation) of the new version x symbiotic, for mutual benefit (if that's possible) matrix in a world where man and machine co-exist. From the animatrixc DVD, renaissance II - it's obvious that the machines did see co-existence as a viable option and actually suggested this when they sent diplomats from 01 to the UN - man cannot live without machine and vice versa - a symbiotic as opposed to antagonistic relationship would be more beneficial to both "species". In a way - then - the One still will complete his task as stated by the Architect, by rebuilding the matrix as he Neo sees it's purpose (to save the humans connected to it also) he would in a sense still reboot and cause another iteration, ergo execute the task of The One. Sorry for the long post.

dave

Mon, 09 Jun 2003 23:48:02 -0500

he only does so after hes killed by that train and has to get a new body.

lepo5

Mon, 09 Jun 2003 21:34:17 -0500

In the first movie Neo fights Smith and breaks one of the lenses in Smiths shades. There's that dramtic pause where we see a close up of the remaining jaggared lense. Can't remember exactly, but doesn't Smith regenerate quicky after that to continue the fight with an undamaged pair of shades. Could be a further clue as to the importance of shades wthin the Matrix.

RIO

Mon, 09 Jun 2003 18:26:53 -0500

I think I've contributed more than enough to the longest thread ever on gothamist, but I can't go without pointing out something else I've noticed in yet another viewing of Reloaded. In the fight with Merovingian's henchmen, at one point Neo blocks a huge sword with his bare hand. The music stops (for dramatic effect), the henchman wielding the sword smiles, and then frowns as if he doesn't understand why the sword didn't chop off Neo's hand. At the same moment the camera shows The Merovingian off to the side with the same puzzled look like "how is that possible?" Then, a couple of beats later, a tiny drop of blood comes from the hand cut and The Merovingian says, confident, but not sure of himself, "You see, he's just a man..." Again, this emphasis on Neo being human, but this time underscored by surprise on the part of the programs. This is the biggest clue that Neo is not all human that I've seen. I think once Revolutions comes out, a lot of people will be saying how "obvious" it was that Neo was part machine/program somehow. Yeah, right, remember this thread you "matrix in a matrix" people. ;^) Lastly, if the "Neo as machine" notion doesn't pan out, there is one thing I'm ready to bet the farm on no matter what: wearing shades in the matrix virtual environment has some vital signficance to those who fight (man AND programs). I'm sure this will be revealed in Revolutions. I mean during the entire Merovingian fight, not one henchman lost his shades despite getting smacked, flipped, falling, etc. I'm sorry, I'm not prepared to believe that the Wachowskis just kept their shades on for "cool factor". Something important is up with everyone's shades.

Macca

Mon, 09 Jun 2003 17:33:34 -0500

By jelly do you actually mean jam? i.e. strawberry or raspberry flavour marmalade?

Adam Hampshire

Mon, 09 Jun 2003 15:43:23 -0500

Neo is a complex, glass-like machine kite. He can do anything he wants by comforming to the Matrix and changing it from blue to green. Neo and Agent Smith need one another. Like peanut butter needs jelly. They take away from each other, but they need each other to exist. They have a love-hate relationship and are related much more than you would first think. I am going to make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. I will be back to shed more insight.

Ya

Mon, 09 Jun 2003 15:09:40 -0500

Neo's mind is trapped in a state that parallel's the matrix and the real world. Thus, he may be able to transfer his unhuman abilities from the matrix to the real world.

TruthBeTold

Mon, 09 Jun 2003 13:14:30 -0500

I dont think Neo is superhuman in the real world at all...But I do believe he has a mental link with the machines...I mean the brains of the ex-Matrix bound humans are wired to accept and emit computer code (albeit throught a 6 inch long metallic spike) with Neo's obviously superior understanding of the AI's coding it isn't too impossible to think taht in this already fantastic world that such a fantastic thing can happen. ...AND I WOULD HATE THE MATRIX WITHIN A MATRIX ENDING...

Monkey Neo

Mon, 09 Jun 2003 11:47:36 -0500

I think you are all a bunch of monkeys living in a matrix yourselves.

martin

Mon, 09 Jun 2003 10:30:10 -0500

I don't think neo having control over the machines would leave him to be "superhuman" in the real world. The phrase "touched the source" could be read as neo's ability to control the machines. He altered the programs outside the matrix, those running the machines in the real world. Interesting point for neo/smith switch, although with Smith increasing in number it seems a bit unlikely

Michael

Mon, 09 Jun 2003 09:55:50 -0500

The Architect: ...Failure to comply with this process will result in a cataclysmic system crash killing everyone connected to the matrix, which COUPLED with the extermination of Zion will ultimately result in the extinction of the entire human race. Coupled with? Does that not imply that Zion and The Matrix are really two seperate entities, two seperate apart from each other things that BOTH will be destroyed, as opposed to one thing with another part within or around it. The question can still be asked I suppose as to whether Zion is a "real" world or a simulation. I am convinced though that Zion (real or not) is external and non-overlapping to the matrix from the dialog of the artchitect. As far as stopping the squiddies. Upon the second viewing of the film I saw that it could not have been an EMP that stopped the squiddies. They appeared to bump into a force field, move forward and bump again, repeat and spark off it everytime they touched it, only then shorting out and dropping to the ground. Most unlike the effect of an EMP that just downed then outright, without them appearing to be fighting or breaking through a force field in the first movie. They are bumping against a force field / invisible wall. That's no EMP we have seen before. I would however be very dissapointed if Neo has superhuman powers in the REAL REAL world as the Bros have made a point of explaining all superhuman x-files and ghosts type stuff away (they are exile or rogue programs). I'd like to believe that Neo was, unwillingly, unknowingly and coincidentally, while his hand was raised, protected from within the matrix by a program (third interested party) because of his function as The One. Maybe by Seraph who by his own admition [paraphrased] "Protects that which is important". Both the "superhuman" in the real world and the matrix within a matrix conclusions would be very dissapointing - I can't accept either.

Michael

Mon, 09 Jun 2003 08:47:09 -0500

Just a quick comment . . . I don't know why but I had the distinct feelig upon hearing the voice over of Morpheus saying in a kind of questioning way "He fights for us" that Morpheus was actually talking about Smith(/Bane) and not Neo. I can't pinpoint it, but I was left with that feeling . . . maybe because Smith is becoming increasingly human in him actions and thinking and, apparently, Neo is becoming increasingly machine / program like - almost as if their roles are slowly reversing. Any one else pick up on that?

Michael

Mon, 09 Jun 2003 07:48:24 -0500

O: Yes, he touched the source and seperated his mind from his body. Now he lies trapped in a place between your world and ours. hmmm ... ok . . there goes my mind! How does this tie in with the end of reloaded?

Mon, 09 Jun 2003 07:17:48 -0500

Transcript from "Enter The Matrix" video game, Niobe and the Oracle conversation: ORACLE: Niobe..... NIOBE: Do I know you? ORACLE: You know me, though you just may not recognize me. NIOBE: Are you telling me that you are the Oracle? ORACLE: I know this may not be easy for any of you, change never is. I wish the face you remember was the face I was still wearing, but that face is gone. NIOBE: If you are the Oracle, tell me if I believe you are. ORACLE: You don't right now, but you will. NIOBE: Are you going to tell me something to make me believe you? ORACLE: Come on Niobe, you know I can't do that. N: Why not? O: Because I cannot make you do anything. N: At least you sound the same. O: As I said, you may not recognize the face, but who and what I am underneath remains the same. N: Can I ask what happened? O: The Merovingian warned me, that If I made a certain choice it would cost me. He is, among other things, a man of his word. N: What was the choice? O: The same one you yourself will have to make: The choice to help Neo or not. N: Then Neo is still alive? O: Yes, he touched the source and seperated his mind from his body. Now he lies trapped in a place between your world and ours. N: Can we free him? O: Trinity can, but she will have to fight her way through hell to do it. N: Can I help? O: That's why I called you. I cannot tell you what is going to happen. All I can do is hope that if given the chance, you will find the courage to do what you can. N: You once told me you knew everything you needed to. O: I do. I knew everything from the begining of this path to the end. N: I don't understand. O: Even I can't see beyond the end. N: The end? Are you trying to tell me the world is going to end? O: Yes. If we cannot save it, it will end. N: You mean Neo. O: I mean we. The path of the one is made by the many. I have a role to play just as you have yours.

Sun, 08 Jun 2003 20:40:24 -0500

Of course, the machines probably wouldn't have kept their deals with Cypher and the guy from Program. It would be a lot easier just to destroy them when they found them using the information given to them by the traitors

Spyder

Sun, 08 Jun 2003 20:39:09 -0500

The machines are more than capable of reinserting someone back into the Matrix. Cypher would have been put back in his memory erased like the guy from World Record. The same thing would've been done for the couple in Program had they decided to go back together.

White Rasta

Sun, 08 Jun 2003 20:28:13 -0500

World Record on the Animatrix DVD has to be one of the coolest things ive ever seen. The only question i have is- How did they plug Dan back into the Matrix? Trinity told the guy that betrayed them in the first movie (i cant remember his name) that that was impossible. Can someone explain? And it looks like Dan struggled out of the cords attached to his arms when he was flailing about. What was that all about? By the way, you guys have some amazing analysis skills. It definetly helps idiots like me understand Reloaded.

White Rasta

Sun, 08 Jun 2003 20:27:59 -0500

Spyder

Sun, 08 Jun 2003 19:52:28 -0500

okay...I need info on the video game, I haven't played it yet and I'm not sure if its worth buying. I need to know what it adds to the story though. Anyone beat the game yet? Please...give me spoilers. Oh...and that Agency talk...what the hell is that about? Why does it feel more real when I'm dreaming then when I am awake? Who are you? Am I alone?

Tackaberry

Sun, 08 Jun 2003 13:10:07 -0500

I think the computers need neo. It s not a conflict at all. The problem, I think is agency. It s the frame problem I suspect. the programs can react and make choices based on inputs. but how is that first choice made? Neo is the one for the machines as much as he is the one for the humans. I think the movie is about the machines trying, unsuccessfully, to understand Agency. He provides the whole thing with agency. The whole thing is contingent on Neo making an original choice (it s a loop) the original choice is save Trinity or reset the system. Both are based on emotion. Machines can t start or reset the process because they dont have true agency. For them there is no choice. they judge inputs and act accordingly. theoretically they could figure all the choices they will make into the futre, meaning all that is left is understaqnding. Only Neo can provide agency, via emotion (the W bros answer to the frame problem). there are at least 5 perhaps 6 people in the movie that can in effect re write the matrix. these re-writings over the long term create anomilies. Eventually it has to resetted, or over infinity it gets completely fucked up. Machines/computers don t have agency, so they can t start it themselves. Neo may be the only real human. Agent Smith I think is an anomily created by the animoly (Neo). This I will suggest is unprecedented. I think we will find that both have the capacity to restart or destroy the Matrix. The third movie will be a matter of which plays out first. A contest betwen anomlies. Smith now has agency (cutting his hands for a new destiny). Smith has agency and will make a decision based on hate, Neo has agency, will make a decision based on love. Merv is the first one. He is the computer s attempt to understand agency via emotion. But he failed, and defends this failure by suggesting that humans don t really have agency either, emotions is just biological code (the cake). It s jsut humans don t understand the why, how the inputs affect htem. Besides, the first 5 did choose the most logical door.... Persephone was designed to evoke emotion and therefore agency from Merv, but this all failed. Persephone felt it in the kiss though, becoming a believer in human agency. You have the oracle and Pers against Merv in his Satan role, waiting for this debate among the programs to conclude. the Arcitect is Freud archytpe in my mind, trying to understand the human mind. the computers need Neo to provide Agency to their system. They have tried to understand it themselves, but failed. Neo is the One for the machines, not the humans. In fact, Neo could very well be the only human, the only thing with agency, in the whole system (except not Smith I will posit).

martin

Sun, 08 Jun 2003 11:55:36 -0500

Macca Doesn't mean he can't go back there, or find an alternative way.

Kallisto

Sun, 08 Jun 2003 08:14:45 -0500

ANDY & LARRY no doubt you'll both come across this page soon and if you do. IT'S ABOUT TIME TO THINK ABOUT MAKING THE ILLUMINATUS TRILOGY INTO A MOVIE. Just a polite hint guys :)

Macca

Sun, 08 Jun 2003 08:12:13 -0500

The Architect: "The door to the right leads to the source and the salvation of Zion". Ergo, Neo never actually reached the source so the Oracle's prophecy is not wrong. Maybe this is where Neo dies in the next film?

martin

Sun, 08 Jun 2003 08:10:56 -0500

Someguy I don't believe that's a lie. That *is* where the path of the one ends. In neo's case it'll have to wait till the next film. After all, it's been mentioned that the trilogy is definitely it as far as Neo is concerned Animatrix I feel annoyed a bit by the animatrix, first up, the only episodes I really liked were the ones that you could download for free. Secondly, I don't feel that it added that much to the story of the matrix. And they're not a patch on the short stories and comics available on the website. I was also annoyed they didn't include a copy of these on the disc. sw1sh No-ones talked about Morevignion and Persephone much as they were really only just introduced in the 2nd film. I think that "love" isn't a specific part of being the one, after all. If you read the architects speech you'll notice that: While the others experienced this in a very general way your experience is far more specific, Vis a vie love. But as I've said before, I beleive that Persephone is an intuitive program, initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche Or in case you haven't guessed it, Love. From what Monica Belucci (the actress) has said, I don't think she's up to much good. EMP blast No-one thinks it's an EMP as they would take out the ship that fired it as well. Time: Yes, if it was a Matrix in a Matrix than this would conveniently tie up that part. But, this idea has been done before (13th Floor, and I'm sure many other time), and I'd assume that the W. Bros have better things to do. Although that would fit in very nicely with the prophecy with their being a previous "one". Meh. I'll be very annoyed if this theory is right Everyone: Ok, major spoiler here so you may or may not want to read this bit. But.... There is a computer game coming out called the Matrix Online. It's set after the end of Revolutions and is set in the Matrix. Therefor the Matrix will be around in some form after Revolutions, and it will still have the machines vs humans. This I feel, also throughs a little water on the matrix within a matrix theory. After all, what's the point playing within a matrix, within a matrix?

TruthbeTold

Sat, 07 Jun 2003 19:51:03 -0500

My favorite Animatrix episode...(of the five I've seen: The Second Renaissance 1 and 2, Detective Story, Beyond, and Program) the one that stuck out in my mind the most was the second Renaissance part two...the scenes of the first power plants which included what looked like fully conscious humans who were pinned onto towers while tubes were filtering energy from all different points as needles probed the brain to induce certain responses were terrifying...and the scene at the end where they show the baby going home and his parents become agents must be the Matrix's first implementations on the child...It seems as if the first Matrix bound power plant was based on grown humans aged till they were infants and then the code was implemented... I just found the stories brilliant....Part one made me feel sorry for the machines...Part two made me squeam...I loved it.

TruthBeTold

Sat, 07 Jun 2003 19:47:40 -0500

Sat, 07 Jun 2003 19:19:23 -0500

Actually Neo's path would've ended if he had entered the Source but he never did. So technically the Oracle did not lie. And I'd really like to hear thoughts on the Animatrix...it really does deserve some attention and discussion

sw1sh

Sat, 07 Jun 2003 15:29:36 -0500

Hi. Seen the film twice. Brillant story which has been running through my mind ever since. Don't like the idea of a matrix within a matrix. I belive Zion is the real world and it's left to harbour the 1% who reject the matrix. The machines keep a gentle eye on its growth and choose to delete its inhabitents when it becomes a threat to them. The architect knew that Neo would walk through the door to save trinity and destroy zion, it was partly his design. Not many people have commented on the Mirovingian's and Persephone's role in the matrix. I belive he was one of the previous reinserted 'ones' who has already been through the cycle. Persephone is equivalent to Trinity where it was love between Persephone and the Mirovingian that made him realise he was a 'one'. The Mirovingian's attitude has since changed, he is now power hungry using his knowledge of the cycle to his advantage. He knows the what the keymaker can do, so is not keen to give him go. Persephone on the other hand is bored with the Mirovingians new attitutde and craves the kiss from Neo to remind herself of how she used to feel for the Mirovingian. As for the end of the film. Must have been an EMP from the ship that killed the sentinels. Bane and Neo both suffered the same coma effect due to their respective EMP blasts. (No idea how yet.) Also, In the animatrix - episode 'A detectives story' I notice a reversed '102' on one of the walls. How does that fit into the '101' theories I've read in previous posts.

Some Guy

Sat, 07 Jun 2003 10:50:53 -0500

One piece of lie from the Oracle: The Oracle: ...a program can either choose to hide here, or return to The Source. Neo: The machine mainframe? The Oracle: Yes. Where you must go. WHERE THE PATH OF THE ONE ENDS... It didn't end there, as we all know... So, either the Oracle was wrong, or Neo is not The One (or maybe - not anymore? - Oracle didn't say he was, anyway). Of course, there is still the third film to prove she was right on that, but methinks, she was referring to the "supposed", "predestined" path of The One.

Some Guy

Sat, 07 Jun 2003 10:22:08 -0500

The requrement for the Matrix to allow CHOICE for the people to accept it interplays amazingly with the biblical theme of God's gift of the FREE WILL - maybe we didn't accept the "first version" of Creation too :)

Macca

Sat, 07 Jun 2003 09:53:23 -0500

In addition to the concepts of room 101 in 1984 there are a couple other suggestions for the 101 number. The original theory was it was to do with Neo being "the one" (much like Trinity (to do with the number three) was in room 303). However a more likely theory is Jusu's idea that 101 is the number 6 in binary code. For those that aren't entirely familiar with this it is the idea that you only have two numbers (hence binary), 1 and 0 and all others numbers are built on this. Much like the more familiar decimal system that we use in real life where there are ten basic numbers (0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9). Binary is used in computers as the function of electrical current is limited to two options, either on (1) or off (0). One other difference between binary and decimal is that it is convention in binary to treat zero as the first number. Therefore the first six numbers are 0.. 1.. 10.. 11.. 100.. 101. And Neo is of course the sixth "One".

Spyder

Sat, 07 Jun 2003 04:06:35 -0500

The the Wachowski's never officially stated it, the number 101 is rumored to be in reference to the book and movie entitled "1984" a tale about a dystopian future where the government otherwise known as "Big Brother" is always watching you. Every move you make, Every thought you make....and freedom is a forgotten word. In the book all people who are against the government and choose to speak their mind are taken to room 101 where their worst nightmares come true.

musclebrain

Fri, 06 Jun 2003 18:00:49 -0500

A question for you all. I noticed that the number 101 pops up a bunch of times throughout the movie. Any meaning to this that you guys can think of? Also, the more I think of it, the more it seems that there are two matrixes (zion and world). One for 99% the other for the 1%. When Neo chose to return to the system instead of rebooting it allowed him to gain this enlightenment and maybe did wake up into reality after the energy burst that destroyed the sentinels. I think this is a pretty cool twist and I would not feel bad if it is the case. Although I hope it is something different that no one has mentioned, its hard to find movies that actually surprise you and are not 100% predictable.

TruthBeTold

Fri, 06 Jun 2003 17:09:52 -0500

To fight convention in modern hollywood movies the Wachowski's could easily provide us with a twist, infinite Matrices ending....But I don't know....I think for this universe I would love to see a "they lived happily ever" after type ending...They've been through so much...I want them to win....Also...I wonder how this movie would have been if they gave it a more psychoanalytical twist...played with our minds a lil more...showed more of Neo's internal conflict...The task of being the ONE should have been as difficult as the task of Christ in "The Last Temptation of Christ" The Characters in this movie are by default rather flat...luckily this works out well enough...but I still wonder how it could've been with more well rounded characters...Smith is great as is...a program fighting with his new found "humanity" and Morpheus, a "Religious" man whose entire religious beliefs were torn from him in one day...And then of course Neo...a man who finally woke up to realize he had a destiny that he is not quite sure he can fullfil...then he realizes that maybe this entire destiny was a facade...Rather interesting characters...but unfortunately the opportunity for rounding them out was missed....they should've went for 3+ hrs like the Lord of the Rings Trilogy...sooo much more could've been accomplished...and a lot less borish as well....Just a few thoughts of mine while im in a hyperactive state...

eyehand

Fri, 06 Jun 2003 16:45:42 -0500

In the old world of artifical neural networks and feedback loops, a net is designed such that the actual output of the net is compared with a desired outcome. The difference of the two is the discrepanacy (anomoly). The anaomoly is the basis for the net to automatically adjust itself to compensate for the anomoly until the desired outcome or stability is achieved. This may take more than one iteration. Each iteration getting a little closer to the desired outcome. Seems to me that if the Matrix has been feeding the discrepancy backinto the net 5 times already, it has been trying to adjust its programming to achieve a desired outcome or stability. As TruthBeTold pointed out even the Smiths note that this time around the events are not happening as before. Maybe each iteration of the Matrix is a little different than the previous. Maybe this Neo is the ONE.

Macca

Fri, 06 Jun 2003 15:09:37 -0500

Good point Rio! However, the human as a battery thing is mentioned in the first film as "harnessing the bioelectrical power and body heat" - I highly doubt that any more than negligible amounts of energy could be harnessed from a few power sockets. I think the devices used for this would be in the pods. (By the way, on a separate note I was thinking about the flaws in this whole humans as power source idea. The problem was that the energy would be going down each generation. However if the humans were fed organic food (in addition to ex-human mush) then humans may just have been being used as a way to convert this energy. Respiration in human cells is something like 65% efficient compared to around 40% for combustion of the same materials. Which means the power plant is viable.) Martin, Your possibility is all well and good. Our argument about the wireless connection was due to Neo's halting of the sentinels. Either Neo manipulated a wireless connnection installed in his head to stop them or the "real world" isn't so real. As for the date of Zion, if, as I believe, it is another Matrix world, it could quite possible be rebooted from 2099 every cycle. In which case the date of the world would be 2199 in the same sense as the matrix-matrix has a date of 1999. If the whole computer system is "older than you know" (I know the architect refers to this as 'the matrix' but then its all an issue of terminology.) then it could quite easily be 600 years old with both matrixes being restarted every 100 years or so. Got that? Good. As for the lie thing I've considered this. I've noticed that generally everyone tells the truth, whether theyre aware of this truth or not. I have found one exception. The Oracle made the prophecy that the war would end when the One reached the source. This hasn't happened. (She doesn't actually say this on screen to my knowledge though.)

TruthBeTold

Fri, 06 Jun 2003 12:58:30 -0500

Even Smith notes that this time around the events are not happening as they were planned to: Smith 1: That went as expected. Smith 2: Yes. Smith 1: It's happening exactly as before. Smith 2: Well, not exactly. Just found that interesting.

Fri, 06 Jun 2003 12:47:13 -0500

it isnt the year 2199...the architect clearly hints that it is much later: Architect: The Matrix is older then you know. I prefer counting from the emergence of one integral anomaly to the emergence of the next. In which case this is the sixth version. Thats all I have for today

Martin

Fri, 06 Jun 2003 12:45:47 -0500

Me: It was stated very clearly by morpheus "I remember that for 100 years we have fought these machines. I remember that for 100 years they have sent their armies to destroy us. And after a century of war, I remember that which matters most. We are still here!" Notice that he never says that they have won. Just that they are still there. Rio/Macca argument over wireless. The one thought that really occurs to me is that perhaps their are two seperate neos. Or neo is capable of existing in both the matrix and the real world at the same time. After all, if you start beleiving that neo has become host to a program, why can't that program exist in the matrix and in his head? After all agent smith has managed that trick. And then you don't need to have this wireless connection. And as a general wonder, has anyone thought of any instance in the matrix where an outright lie has been told?

me

Fri, 06 Jun 2003 08:50:46 -0500

as to state to any remarks regarding zion and the 23 individuals, zion has lived for 100 years without a conflict from the machines, so, what is 100 years? in a world with no sun, time can be anything, they want it to be. so anything is posible and Rio, i agree much.

RIO

Thu, 05 Jun 2003 20:40:02 -0500

Macca, you said, "There is electrical hardware in his head but no power source to send a signal either." Big giantic hole in that statement. You seem to be ignoring the fact that the only reason humans are enslaved are because the machines use them as BATTERIES. It is very easy to assume that, like any low power battery, when Neo used his wireless connection to the matrix to stop the sentinels he used up all his bio-electrical energy (thus coma). Neo "is" a power source, albeit a low-power one, he is never the less, a tiny battery that was freed from the power plant. Come on, give me something better than that. :^)

lepo5

Thu, 05 Jun 2003 20:03:45 -0500

Macca, Yeah, I agree that while the ships can broadcast, the individuals can not unless they are attached to the ship or the power pods in the matrix. ...and Keanu doesn't smile often enough for us to check if he has a blue tooth. :)

Martin

Thu, 05 Jun 2003 17:39:44 -0500

Macca I still beleive the anomaly can now be traced down to Neo. I think the agents are on my side as well as in the opening bits of reloaded. The first words the agent say are Neo: Hiya, fellas. [agent 1] It's him. [agent 2] The Anomaly. [agent 3] Do we proceed? [agent 2] Yes. [agent 3] He is still... [agent 1]...only human. Neo: Hmm. Upgrades. Also, I'll add 2 things to the conversation: has anyone seen Serial Experiments Lane (anime series)? I know that the first matrix shares a lot in common with lots of anime, especially Ghost in the Shell (style wise) But the overall theme/storyline is a lot like this series. I'd recommend watching it. Also, the nebuchadnezzar was built in 2069, the Osiris in 2079 (ish, can't remember the exact dates) Morpheus tells neo that it's close to 2199, which only really gives the 5 iterations of the one around 100 years to exist in. Unless you believe that morpheus is wrong. (It should be pretty easy to verify the year it is buy star-charts etc. (and if they can build floaty hovercrafts, it shouldn't be that difficult to look at star positions above clouds) Anyways... http://www.zionmainframe.net/main/reloaded/archive/transcript.txt Full script to the matrix.

Macca

Thu, 05 Jun 2003 17:29:17 -0500

Rio, Yeah you are right about SOME bits. Clearly there is large amounts of electronics in all the sockets so there is potential for a wirless connection there. BUT, the whole reason they need to plug into the electronics in the Nebuchadnezzar is that they need to connect to the wireless connection there. There is electrical hardware in his head but no power source to send a signal either. As for your point about the Wachowski brother ethos; yes they do intend to make philosophical points and have those sort of themes throughout the movie. However any filmmaker knows that plot is needed to engage the audience rather than just making intelligent points. (Watch lord of the rings for example, full of Christian morals yet it still had huge twists that don't make any more of a point; Gandalf returning as the White for example.) I'm not saying that there definitely is a matrix within a matrix, I'm just saying there isn't enough evidence to rule it out and it's as likely as Neo being a machine.

Darth Tobar

Thu, 05 Jun 2003 16:58:51 -0500

I saw some commentary from Keanu and Lawrence Fishborn who both said that the second movie was going to be filled with a lot more eastern philosophy. My take on Neo is that he is on a journey to enlightenment. As you travel and learn, your experiences become more profound. He has become linked with the machines and the line between reality and the matrix is being blurred. If you look at all those old Kung Fu movies or even movies like Crouching Tiger Hidden dragon, the most enlightened of the masters find great powers by becoming one with their surroundings. Neo is able to stop the machines because he like Smith is on a collision course to the same enlightenment where there is no matrix or reality, only spirituality. I know this sounds weird, but perception, reality, heaven, hell are all based on the same thing, connection. Everything is connected and everything talks to everything else. When you quiet your mind and Neo is learning to do this, he is finding that this can happen in reality also. Do I think he will have power over everything in the real world, no, but maybe over some things? He has taken some power back into the real world from his experiences in the Matrix. Smith can now download his virus self into humans, so can Neo take power over the machines into reality.

RIO

Thu, 05 Jun 2003 11:56:16 -0500

Mecco, duuuude, you are "so" skirting the obvious truth. The Neb's wireless connection to the matrix is the same wireless connection that allowed it to, in the words of Morpheus, "pinpoint your (Neo's) input, output carrier signal." what they were pinpointing was Neo's transmitter...Built Into His Head. Everytime they enter the matrix, they say, "we have to reach BROADCAST depth." that means a wireless transmission. It is not far fetched to imagine Neo as a wireless node/hotspot (wifi baby!) with human casing. Neo "receives/transmits" wirelessly to the matrix without the assistance of a Zion ship. not far fetched at all in the context of the movie. Every person who has been linked to the matrix has a huge hunk of metal soldered to the back of their brain. If you think that it's just a hole with a metal border, with no accompanying electronics, then I don't think you are being realistic (that is, in the context of a sci-fi film). connecting to another thread that Jen made, I think you need to focus on the Wachowskis underlying message. it isn't "hey look how many levels we can trick you with" (i.e. matrix in a matrix), it's about transformation of the self. transformation of the spirit, mind, and body. the man/machine consciousness hybrid theory speaks to this more than a matrix in a matrix theory. transformation.

Macca

Thu, 05 Jun 2003 10:41:05 -0500

lepo, You're correct about the Neb (and the other hovercrafts) having a wireless connection to the matrix. What i refute was the concept that NEO had one somehow built into his brain.

well...

Thu, 05 Jun 2003 01:55:54 -0500

Persephone is not the "mother"! how can you think that! Hot mama maybe...but not the mother. so she wanted a kiss....that explains nothing, it was obvious in this film that it was intended for us to realize that the computer programs are very human like, Persephone had emotions yes, but so did her significant other, so did Smith, the machines after all were created in our image, no....the Oracle is mother...she was created as an intuitive program to better understand the humans. To realize what works in their mindset to keep their crops from waking up out of the Matrix. We couldn't live in a world of peace and happiness and We couldn't live in a world of conflict. So...in the end...they found a midway point. The Oracle was the one that realized this. She found that as long as we have a choice....to live or die to fight or ....to ignore...they realized that as long as they had a choice to choose either the Matrix...or the real world....then they would not be ejected for the Matrix....so Zion...was created as a second program to collect the 1% that didn't accept the Matrix....they had the choice to do so...but in the end...it was a false choice.

What is the Matrix?

Thu, 05 Jun 2003 01:21:28 -0500

What we originally thought was real...is not...forget everything you thought you knew. There are no machines who want to control us. It's all a lie. Yes, we are imprisoned in the Matrix, but not by machine, but by man! Damn you Bush Administration!

huh?

Thu, 05 Jun 2003 01:13:04 -0500

Holiday Who-bie What-y?

Tristan Clarke

Thu, 05 Jun 2003 01:09:49 -0500

I believe the Zionites that exist now are the descendents of the original 23 the 5th "One" picked out. Therefore they were there for several generations after the last destruction of Zion. Backing it up a generation. The 5th "One" probably freed his 23 led them to the next Zion site, then left proceeding to die without telling them anything more than what they needed to know. Hence Morpheus's speech in the first movie holds true "There was a man born inside...it was he who freed the first of us." Another thing I noticed...each Zionist cycle has 2 "One"s...One as its father, and one as its possible savior...The very first one was the only one who had one role...not really significant...but interesting nonetheless

Thu, 05 Jun 2003 00:47:21 -0500

and Persephone saying that "he was once like you" I'm sure was in reference to Neo's twitterpatedness towards Trinity

Thu, 05 Jun 2003 00:45:31 -0500

...and the Oracle is not psychic in the traditional sense, as the Architect stated, she is merely an intuitive program created to better understand the humans so the machines have a better idea of our nature to know what kind of world can be created to act as a distraction to us while they absorb our energy. She doesn't forsee future events. She probably just calculates precise probabilities. And the Architect referring to her as "mother" merely means that it was because of her that the machines got a more in depth understanding of human nature and therefore is the one who is partially responsible for the design of the Matrix.

Thu, 05 Jun 2003 00:16:37 -0500

oh, and the Matrix in a Matrix idea, getting back to that. If Zion has been destroyed and rebuilt then why would the Zionites believe that they've been where they are at for a hundred years? Unless of course their memories were erased and altered to believe something else. Sounds like the Matrix to me.

Spyder

Thu, 05 Jun 2003 00:10:55 -0500

yes, the Zionites use a pirated off air signal to "hack" into the Matrix, they just need to get close enough to the surface where the Matrix is to log in to it as we seen in the movies as well as the Animatrix (Final Flight of the Osiris)

lepo5

Wed, 04 Jun 2003 23:43:04 -0500

What about when Morpheous says in the first movie "this is where we BROADCAST our pirate signal and hack into the matrix" He showing Neo around the Neb(ship) when he says it. This suggests wireless connection, yes ?

Macca

Wed, 04 Jun 2003 19:02:43 -0500

Alright guys, I'm afraid this is going to be a long post as I haven't been on for a couple of days and I'm a dogmatic git who has to answer everyone. (Although theres stuff here for the general argument even if its addressed to certain individuals.) So here goes: Rio, I have to admit after viewing your post and downloading that trailer I was pretty stumped for a while and almost admitted defeat! (Also I didn't want to find out about any spoilers for the next film, why did you have to dangle it in front of me so tantalisingly!) Now, after examination I'm not so convinced. Me reckons that Trinity was just holding Neo's hand anyway and you instinctively lift it to protect your face when you have a big robotic squidy thing coming at you. The reason for the blue electricity was because it crashed into the front of the hovercraft (I think thats what the sentinels do when they crash by whatever method.) As for [SPOILER WARNING - DON'T READ FURTHER IF YOU WANT TO WATCH THE NEXT MOVIE PROPERLY! ACTUALLY JUST SKIP THIS PARAGRAPH!] Neo's "blindness" it is a good point. If it is a matrix world then he should be able to heal himself (like Morpheus got rid of his cuts and bruises after the interrogation in the first movie.) BUT, maybe if hes injured in the real real world he might have the same problems in the Matrix. (Any relation between a fake-real world and the matrix world wont necessarily be the same relation between the real real world and the fake-real world. Got that? Good.) Now the sentinel crashing isn't anything to do with Neo here, I dont think he has any magical power in his hands that he needs to do to stop them and someone else holding it up in the right direction for it to work is just silly. Also the EMP-attacks-human/machine-hybrids-through-their-eyes theory. I have no reason to believe this at all. Neo's blindness might be a mental problem due to his over exertion at the end of the second movie or any other reason whatsoever. Wearing the shades in the Matrix? It just looks bloody cool and like theyre bad mother fuckers, hence only the fighting guys have them. (By the way that third captain in Reloaded DIDN'T wear shades, shame he would have looked better with them.) The windows to the soul thing might sound nice but I dont think its very believable in the context of these films. Also heres another thing, Neo is told by the architect he is IRREVOCABLY human. He's human and always will be! (oh, and here's another argument for another real world. When Trinity died in both the worlds we know Neo says "I know you can hear me". Ha! Respond to that! heh) zosted, I mentally made sure I watched the Bane thing second time round and he actually cuts his LEFT hand, he DOES shake Neo's hand, but with his right and he only has the slightest drop of blood on this one so it may not even have got onto Neo or if it did Neo probably wouldn't have noticed this. It's always possible he transferred something to Neo this way but I doubt it - he was trying to kill him and I doubt he would have made the pre planning of transferring blood as a "backup" option in case something went wrong. Doesn't quite fit, nice idea though. The TVs being of other "ones" I have problems with as I've already stated before. At one point when the Architect is talking about the other 5 it shows *our* Neo on one screen that it zooms into with one reply while the one next to him says "there have been five other before me?". This shows that every monitor is showing our Neo or simulations of him. (This is the only Neo who has had five before him if hes the 6th one.) My belief is that the TVs show simulations or Neo's probable answers based on machine predictions. Hence at one point Neo and all the monitors say "BULLSHIT!" and the Architect says "denial is the more predictable of all human responses". Your other ideas sound pretty cool but are entirely speculative, we can't really debate them as you've made them from the slightest facts. This isn't to say they arent true, they're just hard to discuss. Martin, The "anomaly" the architect mentions isn't Neo, youre right. What it IS, is the 1% that fundamentally reject the matrix and that "left unchecked might threaten the system itself, ergo those that refuse the program while the minority if unchecked would cause an escalating probability of disaster". Without wanting to sound arrogant for those that dont understand he is saying "the 1% could pose a threat to the whole program. That is to say, these people, even if theyre only small percent would pose a greater and greater risk of destabilising the system, if theyre unchecked." Also I think your right about a lot of it (maybe not the neo machine thing - but I've already said my thoughts on that.) The thing about the Oracle is fairly right - she is intuitive, not all knowing. She knows the possible futures, not the future. This is similar to the possible responses of Neo on the TVs. You're again right about Smith purely being a virus. The Mervingian is a rogue program who I think will want to be the new Architect, he is after power. Brian, We realise the movie is for entertainment. and it entertains us to talk about it. I regularly debate lots of things with family and friends including things like should we have British membership of the Euro? (not for at least another five years!), is capital punishment just? (under no circumstances), who should play left wing for England? (clearly Gareth Barry), and are Bert and Ernie gay? (Don't be ridiculous... Big Bird on the other hand...). I can't speak about everyone else on here but I usually come on the net and check boards like this when I'm bored - I enojy looking into the philosophy of movies, books and actual philosophers works. Now stop being such a bloody pretentious sod and stop judging everyone else. You're in no place to judge others when you've got a name like Brian. Beato, Tank (and Dozer and Link) are "children of Zion" (Zion is a city in the real world) and are born like we are through natural methods. You'll find that these guys do NOT have any holes in their arms as they never go in the Matrix, they just serve as operators. Spyder, Spot on. 'Nuff said. Duh, Yeah I agree with you. I liked the second movie for the same reason I liked the first, it continued to boggle your mind with philosophy whilst blowing your mind with the fights and special effects. wrongu, 1) I wonder how much the Agents just pretended to put up a fight. I mean Agents are supposed to kick everyone's arse (other than Neo's) yet Morpheus more than handles himself against that agent on the truck. And the Agent took a long time to delete the keymaker. Makes you think hey. 2) I think the Architect wanted Neo to take the right door. He did tell him about Trinity but possible Neo would have forseen that anyway. He does try to persuade him to take the right when he says "she is going to die and there is nothing you can do". 3) The 1% that are freed would probably only accept the Zion world (be it real or another matrix level) if it seemed beliveable. That's why they continue attacks against it so the humans dont question things more. 4) Neo seems to have the ability to will himself back to life (in the matrix at least) so maybe he can't die. Null, I think the Oracle can forsee the future, in terms of her prophecies I think Neo technically did die. (Her prophecy to Trinity was she would love a dead man and he would be the one.) I don't think she knows "everything" she just has "the gift of vision" hence she doesnt know whats going on in Neo's head (or maybe she does but wants him to talk about it). I think she always "believed" in Neo but that doesnt mean its wrong by the "you made a believer out of me" comment. By Neo's existence she believed and hence when he first existed she was made a believer (or even before that as she made the prophecy of the one). It would appear that the Oracle does work for the machines but this was only implied, not stated so we can only speculate on her true nature. I think the "please" the Architect said was just to show his distaste as the title, nothing more. I think Smith's ability to clone wasnt from the exchange of code with Neo. I think well find out how he did this in the next movie (I won't tell you why, I've just heard other spoilers). If you want to be further enlightened about the Neo stoppping the sentinels just read back up the thread of this board. (Although the electronic implant is what all matrix born humans have.) Now your argument about the Zion world not being abother matrix due to the machines drilling. It's a fair point. However maybe thye needed a believable destruction of Zion as a cause for Neo to get to the Architects room and then to the source. His actions were "not beyond our control" according to the architect. The Architect gave Neo a choice as he couldn't force Neo to goto the source if he didn't want to, he had to provide another door really. (Neo would have kicked his arse otherwise, which is what I would have done in the first place.) The concept of fate and choice are interlinked. The idea in the movie seems to be that all our choices were actually made a long time ago due to the predeterministic nature of reality. Whatever we decide we were always going to decide because the starting scenario was always the same. i.e. If you copied the universe exactly everything would have the same causes and thus the effects would always be the same. This means that the two universes would be the same in 10,000 years time too. Hence the Oracle, if our fate has already been decided it can be predicted. Of course Neo has been trying to reject this notion for the whole story as he believes in free will - "I dont like the idea I'm not in control of my own life." Whether he succeeds in proving free will in the next film is something we'll have to wait and see. The Merovingian is a rogue programme, we'll have to wait to find out how he got that way and what part he is going to play. The twins WERE cool! I hope theyre not dead and I wish we saw more talkie scenes with them as Id like to see thier personalities. God knows what Persephone meant but I think she just mean "he" was just young and full of optimism and ideals rather than a cheating scumbag who just craves power. Neo was able to save Trinity as he can manipulate the Matrix. She only had a bullet in her heart in the Matrix world and hence he can remove it. The Oracle said that Neo had already made his choice as she clearly believes in the predeterminism idea I mentioned earlier. All of Neo's choices have already been made. All he can do now is do his best to understand why he will make those choices. That dissemination bit is a bit I have trouble with too. We need to understand Neo's true nature and I don't suppose Rio and myself will resolve this by the time the next film comes out so we'll have to wait. I think it means that if its disseminated it will be spread out very thinly and thus no one person will have Neo's code until it converges again for the next One. (Perhaps all matrix code is just regenerated and thus eventually the chance that all the "good" code appears in one person will occur. Rio (again!), They traced his signal through the power plant by a carrier signal. True. This wasn't a wireless signal though, he was connected to the matrix by a bloody big electric plug in the back of his head and they probably tapped into the power plants mainframe some how to trace his signal. This meant they could send in a virus program to make the machines think Neo's body was dead of something so the machine dumped his body into that sewer place before it was regenerated as food. They waited in this sewer place to pick him up. No wireless connection proven at all!

Ryan

Wed, 04 Jun 2003 18:27:55 -0500

I just had an interesting thought. I read somewhere that "neophobia" is the fear of anything new. This (logically) brings me to believe that the root "Neo" means "new" in Greek. Can this mean that for some reason our Neo from the movies is new and different from the other "One's" and his story will end differently than that of the 6 others? Can anyone back me on this?

Henry

Wed, 04 Jun 2003 18:20:11 -0500

I think that the trailer of revolutions is tricky when Morpheus say �He fight for us�. You know that trailers are never in the right order. May be when he sad that he is referring to Seraph who also appears fighting. Because you can�t see who Morpheus is seeing when he say that. May be he is amazed seeing Seraph fighting against the machines.

TruthBeTold

Wed, 04 Jun 2003 18:18:34 -0500

Agent Smith did not purposely enter the mind of Bane....as Smith looked at Smith and at the phone, they answered it out of playful curiousity...not malicious planning. And there was no mystery EMP pulse that disabled the sentinels....thats just corny and stupid.

RIO

Wed, 04 Jun 2003 17:09:48 -0500

Great post from Null, and one point you brought up effectly answered something people keeping using to punch a hole in the notion that Neo could 1)feel the machines outside the matrix, and 2)disable the sentinels wirelessly. "Remember [in Matrix 1] that they found Neo in the Real World power plant by tracing his carrier signal." Exactly. A wireless connection between the matrix and the real world is proven in Matrix 1. He is connected to the machines in the real world wirelessly. Neo is, or has become a man/machine hybrid consciousness.

Ryan

Wed, 04 Jun 2003 15:57:49 -0500

Thanks Vanguard, I'm heading over to Amazon right now.

Null

Wed, 04 Jun 2003 15:53:10 -0500

Matrix: Reloaded is a GREAT sequel. Only reason it's not better than the first, is because it can't stand on it's own. Otherwise the action scenes are first rate, second to none. The plot is also outstanding. That is, as long as you are paying attention, and are trying to figure out what the hell is really going on. If you were expecting regurgitated baby food, go see just about any other movie. The Matrix series not only overloads your brain with visual eye candy but with a mind bending plot. I have to admit that I didn't come to a full appreciation of Reloaded till I saw it the second time (so maybe I'm slower than others?). More than likely I will catch other finer points watching it on DVD (when it comes out) again & again & again... (you know what I mean). Just to give credit where credit is due, a lot of my thoughts have been voiced by others on this site. I'm just putting in my vote for what I believe is going on and going to happen. And for you losers who don't understand who we are and why we are spending our time analyzing this movie. Don't worry about it, go psycho analyze some other world problem. Some people like cross word puzzles others like tennis. We like this movie. Just leave it at that. Oh, and who am I... a semi nerd, who has a wife, 2 kids, a dog, a house, a job (thank God in this economy), and a lot of bills and taxes to pay (YES the MATRIX really truly has me, must figure out some way of freeing my mind!). By the way, something else that makes the Matrix series awesome, is how many real world parallels there are to it. As has been stated by others on this site, I don't claim to have all the answers, and probably have more questions. One difficult aspect in trying to analyze this movie, is that it can be over analyzed. This means that the W. Bros are weaving a fun and intricate story. This doesn't necessarily mean that the story is bullet proof. An example of this would be the Oracle. Does the Oracle tell the truth, know all, work for the system? - "On the one hand you'll have Morpheus' life, and on the other your life." Depends on whether or not Neo died briefly after Agent Smith shot him. - In the Reloaded meeting with the Oracle, the Oracle asks Neo, "How do you feel?". Why ask, she already knows, doesn't she? - Oracle: "Seems like every time we meet, I got nothin but bad news. I'm sorry about that, I surely am. But for what it's worth, you've made a believer out of me." Didn't she ALREADY know, ALREADY believe? - Why hasn't the Oracle told Neo that this is the sixth time thru the loop? Is she just a program that helps manage the Zion illusion/Matrix.? Or is she just looking out for her own well being? She is now an EXILED program. When Neo says "The Oracle" in response to the Architects' "Mother of the Matrix" comment, I believe the Architect says "Please", because the Oracle only knows the future because it has repeated itself 5 times already. Is the Oracle the mother of the Matrix? - Architect: "she stumbled upon a solution whereby nearly 99 percent of all test subjects accepted the program as long as they were given a choice,..." - Oracle tells Neo about the choice of his life or Morpheus'. - Oracle: "Because you didn't come here to make the choice. ...." Based on the ASSUMPTION, that the Architect is telling the truth, the Oracle IS the Mother of the Matrix. What characteristics were exchanged between Neo & Smith? Smith can clone himself. Neo could never do this, weird! Can Neo now communicate with the Sentinels on some subconscious wireless link? Maybe. Remember that they found Neo in the Real World power plant by tracing his carrier signal. The Agents in the Original Matrix movie could communicate with the sentinels, but this was from within the Matrix, not in the Zion world. Unless of course Zion is just part of the Matrix Master Program. Or is Neo a machine or part machine? Is Neo a machine, human, or combination? - When plugged in on the ship, you could see Neo's heart and vital life signs. - Agents refer to Neo as 'only human'. - In Reloaded, Agents says, "STILL only human". Interesting, since this may suggest some sort of change in Neo. - Architect refers to Neo as being human. Architect: "You have many questions, and though the process has altered your consciousness you remain irrevocably human." This process that has altered Neo's consciousness, what has changed about Neo? - Architect also makes statements to the effect that Neo is a "designed" program/machine. Architect: "Your 5 predecessors were, by design, based on a similar predication". - Agent Smith mentions that somehow code was copied or corrupted from his last battle with Neo in the original movie. - There is an electronic implant (plug) in the back of his head. - Persephone says, "he was like you once". - Both Neo & Bane/Smith seem to be in comas due to an EMP. - In the RevolutionS trailer Morpheus says "He fights for us", as if this was a surprise. I believe, that when Neo died and came back to life in the original movie, he had somehow managed to gain a machine consciousness/programming. This may be due in part to his above average neural synaptic responses as noted by Mouse in his fight with Morpheus, which made his brain more compatible for machine programming. Also in his ability to free his mind, "there is no spoon". Is there a Matrix within a Matrix ( or another level within the Matrix program)? ARGUMENTS FOR: - The Architect and Merovingian, are aware that Neo is NOT the FIRST ONE. The previous TV ONE'S, look identical to Neo. - Agent Smith is able to move from the Matrix to Zion in the form of Bane. Based on the ASSUMPTION, that the Architect and Merovingian are NOT the machine program that is just lying to Neo trying to confuse him/us. There must be some part of the Matrix "Master Program", be it another thread, process, or the OS, that runs independently of the Matrix "Human World Simulation" program. That is the only way that the Architect and Merovingian know of the previous Neos/Zions/anamolies. ARGUMENTS AGAINST: If Zion is just another part of the Matrix, why bother sending sentinels to drill down and destroy Zion? The machines could just as easily have disconnected everyone in the Zion Matrix from the power plant. Then restarted Zion with new people from the Main Matrix program. And yes, it would be very easy for the machines to keep track of what people chose the Zion Matrix. They knew when to flush Neo from his pod in the power plant. Why does the Architect give Neo a choice of saving Trinity or Humanity? The Architect being a machine/program that designed the Matrix, would obviously want the Matrix to be a SUCCESS, NOT a FAILURE. This would allow the machines to stay in control. According to the Architect, for the Matrix to continue, Neo must return to the Source and "reinsert the prime program" (restart the system). If this is indeed true, why would he even let Neo know that Trinity had entered the Matrix, and then give him the choice of saving her or saving the human species? One answer, is that he has spun a lie to actually protect the Source. This lie is difficult to see through because it is executed so well. The wall of TV monitor Neo's making obvious comments in response to the Architect's story about Neo being the 6th anamoly was convincing. Giving Neo the CHOICE to restart the program and save Humanity was an excellent bluff. When in fact the Architect knew the full well that the probability of making any choice where love is involved, almost certainly leads a human to choose love. How did Agent Smith get out of the Matrix as Bane? - The 'Zion' world is just another Matrix ( or another level within the Matrix), and Agent Smith has realized this. - Agent Smith was able to upload himself into Bane's brain, much in the same way as any training program can be uploaded into a brain. This may have been on accident or on purpose. How did Neo stop the Sentinels? - The rescue ship set off an EMP, which stopped the sentinels, and put Neo in a comma since he is part or all machine. - Neo can now communicate with the Sentinels on some subconscious wireless link, because of some cross code exchange with Agent Smith, or because he is part machine. - Neo has realized that he is in another Matrix (or level within the Matrix), and has self awakened himself. Hence going into a comma in the 'Zion' world. What is it about CHOICE, FATE, PURPOSE? This is a critical point of this whole movie. Yet I'm failing to understand it's role. Unless it's how these relate to our real lives. Please help! Why is Agent Smith still trying to kill Neo? Possible Answer: He wants to be FREE of the Matrix. The only way to do this is kill Neo, which causes the system to crash, or just kill all humans. Smith also mentioned something about Purpose. But I didn't fully catch this part of the dialog. Maybe someone else can expand upon this dialog. Who is Merovingian and what greater role if any will he play? Are the Twins Dead? Hope not they were pretty cool. Need some more fight scenes with them. What did Persephone mean when she said, "he was like you once". Does she mean human or on a mission to save mankind? How was Neo able to save Trinity? You know, pull the bullet out, restart her heart. What did the Oracle mean when she said, "Because you didn't come here to make the choice. You've already made it. You're here to try to understand why you made it."? MAKES NO SENSE TO ME!!! What did the Architect mean when he said, "The function of the One is now to return to the source allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry..."? Does this mean that everyone would temporarily be like Neo? Disseminate means to spread or disperse. Spreading Neo's code to everyone, would give everyone his power to manipulate the Matrix. MAKES NO SENSE TO ME!!! To sum it all up, there is a lot of questions with many possible answers. Don't know any other movie, besides the movie of 'our current lives' that makes you think so much. That's part of what makes this movie great. Maybe that's the point the W. Bros are trying to make. Look at your own life, do you have choices, does fate rule your life, do you have a purpose? Good questions. But let's not get philosophical. Can't wait for Revolutions. I don't expect Revolutions to answer everything about the Matrix or life. But I do expect it to be a fun and exciting ride like life.

Spyder

Wed, 04 Jun 2003 15:33:07 -0500

The Animatrix rocks ass! Watch all of them consecutively all high and you'll trip out more than if you were watching Fantasia.

Vanguard

Wed, 04 Jun 2003 14:03:24 -0500

Hi Ryan, The Animatrix is a bundle of I think about 8 Movieclips � 10 Minutes each. The Clips are all independent stories an give more backroundinfo on the Matrix-world. For example it shows how the Machines took over the earth.....you can buy it at amazon :-)...but it also came on TV........a must-see for a Matrix-Fan

Ryan

Wed, 04 Jun 2003 12:10:51 -0500

Hey, I hear some people talking about the "Animatrix." What is it and how can I see it? Thanks.

Vanguard

Wed, 04 Jun 2003 10:57:47 -0500

OK after 2 Years of reading through all the posts....... Zion has been destroyed what, 5,6 times. So the Machines created and want this cycle: Neo picking 23 out of the Matrix, then dieing and announcing his return, The people of Zion finding the One and the One finding his way to the Architect to start all over again. That�s what the Architect sais (most of it) here are my problems : 1) If Neo is supposed to find the Architect, why do all the Agents try to stop him or try to kill(delete)the Keymaker, which wouldn�t allow Neo to the Architect 2) It seems to me as if the Architect want�s Neo to take the left door or at least he�s OK with it. He even told him about Trinity which encourages Neo to take the left door. Now aren�t we supposed to think, the Architect and the Machines want Neo to take the right door to reload the Matrix? If he hadn�t told him about Trinity Neo might of taken the right door. 3) If Zion is wanted and the Machines are only waiting say 100 years+ to destroy it completely. Why in hell are they fighting them all those years before. I mean they need Zion to wake up those 1% of people that don�t go with the Matrix and find the One. If not found the hole Matrix would colapse, right? What else should the Machines need Zion for? So why are they fighting a war? 4)What happens if Neo gets killed and can�t go to the Architect.....can he be killed? questions, questions, questions.......... maybe the Achitect is telling Neo crap? Or he doesn�t belong to the Machines. The Oracle sees to it that the One finds his way to the Architect......what does that make of her? I guess we�ll get some answers in November or I shouldn�t ask so many questions :-)

Wed, 04 Jun 2003 10:55:48 -0500

wrongu

Wed, 04 Jun 2003 01:50:11 -0500

why isn't anyone discussing the "real" stuff about what the Matrix is supposed to be about. The metaphor for our own fu**ed up reality, notice how the agents appear in the form of government men. How the Architect's discussion of evil includes, along with pictures of hitler, a giant size picture of George W. Bush. We are slaves people, sure...at the moment we still have certain freedoms. But in the end....we're trapped in a system that won't allow us to live any other way aside from what the government says. That Bush...through his son will achieve his "New World Order" and that we....will truly be...slaves

Duh!

Wed, 04 Jun 2003 00:49:12 -0500

It annoys me that everyone is knocking the Matrix Reloaded, saying that it doesn't have the same heart of the original and all that crap, what people fail to realize that the Matrix wasn't a single stand alone movie, it was the first act of a grander theatrical three part miniseries. Everyone knows that every story is broken up into three parts. 1) the introduction of characters and backstory, 2) the revelation of conflict that our heroes are faced with and 3) the final conlusion, the climax of all events. The Matrix Reloaded was not a sequel, just part two of a single story. It annoys me how people even complain about the ending of Reloaded, even though the first movie ended exactly the same way! Acting as merely an intermission for the next act. Yes, the Matrix isn't a series of movies....its a deep mythology , a gargantuan tale spread across three feature films, 9 short animated films and a video game. If anything.....The Matrix Reloaded, the Animatrix, and Enter the Matrix act as a single entity to provide us with what we call a sequel. Unfortunately, this kind of marketing gimmick, though cool and very in depth, does limit most of us as not all of us are gonna play the video game and or watch the Animatrix. But what the hell.....what can ya do.

Spyder

Tue, 03 Jun 2003 23:57:05 -0500

in reference to the hallways and doors. Every computer system is designed to have backdoors and backway entrances and exits to easily manuever in. The machines are smart enough to have such access to get from one side of the virtual world to the other quickly if need be

What is the Matrix?

Tue, 03 Jun 2003 21:25:14 -0500

You thought you knew what the matrix was.....but you were wrong. The Matrix Still has you!

Med

Tue, 03 Jun 2003 20:20:25 -0500

Hello everyone. Great comments. Has anyone taking the time to read the script from the Enter the Matrix Game? In it, the Oracle makes a reference to two parents that sold her original program to the Merovigian b/c of a child (explaining the need to change actresses due to the originals death). Could this child somehow be involved in part 3. Also, remember in the movie when Neo received a spoon from one of the orphans. Could this be the very same child from part 1? Perhaps he has some part to play in part 3. . .

Spyder

Tue, 03 Jun 2003 20:00:58 -0500

hmm...well, I suppose I should just post what my initial thoughts on the Matrix Reloaded before I had came to this site and read everyone else's thoughts. You have no idea how annoying it was asking people who watched the movie what they thought only to realize that they didn't even understand it. I must say that some of the theories in here are both well thought out and some..well, as someone said "clutching at straws". After I watched Reloaded I walked out with the belief that there is a Matrix within a Matrix if that's what you wish to call it. Everything from the Architect's conversation with Neo to Smith's ability to exit the Matrix and enter the body of a man as well as Neo's ability to feel the squid sentinels and stop them. Now, I would like to think that he did stop them as I had initially didn't stop to think that an emp did the job. The Architect said that the Matrix was remade six times...and that this was the six time it was being destroyed....but the Matrix was not in danger, it was Zion he was referencing...six Zion's? all destroyed and rebuilt....sounds like they are strongly suggesting that Zion is the Matrix, after all, the robots first design was a perfect world...that they found humans kept rejecting....so the redesigned it based on what they thought human's wanted....its perfectly logical to think that a machine after trial and error would create a reality where the humans thought they were free, and were fighting for something they believed in with the hope of victory. I don't think this would take away anything at all from the overall message and morals of the Matrix trilogy. The Wachoski's are intelligent men. Adding a new layer to universe is not cheesy.

Ryan

Tue, 03 Jun 2003 19:06:35 -0500

For the record...Brian is not related to me.

RIO

Tue, 03 Jun 2003 14:05:42 -0500

Interesting link to the mystic influences of the matrix. I've been trying to avoid this because I enjoy the matrix on a purely science fiction level, but the reality is that anyone familiar Cabalistic writings will quickly realize that the Wachoski Brothers are students and drawing most of their references from this source. It's fairly obvious, though still fascinating.

Spectator

Tue, 03 Jun 2003 12:24:39 -0500

Interesting remarks from all. For some more fun, see link below for an occultist scholar's article on the "Merovingian" dynasty and bloodline. http://www.dagobertsrevenge.com/index.html?articles/merosymbols

Beato

Tue, 03 Jun 2003 11:48:51 -0500

Lots of comments.....Damn....... The one thing that I will comment on is....the mating in Zion.....When you say the Matrix controls the sex, and ....Tank says in the first movie that he is a Child of Zion....Born and raised there....where does he get that from? If the Matrix controls that would he have the jacks on his arm?? I am confused with this....someone explain ??

Martin

Tue, 03 Jun 2003 07:57:19 -0500

Brian We're people. We're doing this because we enjoy it. Stretching our brains. Some people spend their entire lives pondering over a few statements made by Plato or Archimedes, and we call those people philosophers. Some people write books on what Shakespear really meant, other spend their lives working on obscure mathematical problems or physics problems. They're all working to solve a puzzle, just like we are. We like the puzzle the W. Bros have left us, and we're trying to solve it. It's simple. If you had half a brain you would have figured it out yourself.

RIO

Tue, 03 Jun 2003 00:08:26 -0500

How can I put this...I agree with everything TruthBeTold said. Bravo. And to join in the fun, this is who I am (in one sense): http://marsmag.com/adario.html

TruthBeTold

Mon, 02 Jun 2003 21:23:25 -0500

The Matrix invokes one intrinsic thought within all of us who care to post deep and lengthy thoughts on this page, Brian. It has nothing to do with jaw-on-ground enthusiasm, nothing to do with our lack of girlfriends' (because according to brian, taking 5 minutes out of each day to respond to a forum OBVIOUSLY means you cannot manage a relationship) It has to do with the fact that in the end we really have no idea if choice, fate, free-will, or predestination even exist. We have no idea if the choices we make had to be made for some event to happen 5 yrs from now. The Matrix makes those who truly understand it take a step backwards...look around at the world...and question everything. Ultimately, most people think, if only for one second, that their entire life is out of their control...IMAGINE if you were proven that it truly was? Oh and you said, you wonder who we are I can at least show you who I am... http://members.migente.com/bebegigante/

Brian

Mon, 02 Jun 2003 20:32:55 -0500

You people seriously have to realize that it is a movie for entertainment puposes. It is almost comical to read some of these thoughts and impressions of the movie. What really fascinates me, is who are you people writing these posts. Are you educated? Are you brilliant? Or better yet, do you apply to yourself with the same enthusiasm you make these prudent explantions to better your life. Do you have good jobs? Do you have a girlfriends (because no girl is posting on this site)? I need to know who are you people, and why do you read so into a movie. Why dont you use your process of thought and come up with a way to make this world we live in (the real one), a better place for our fellow man. There is no such thing as the matrix, it is fantasy. The true genius turns fantasy into reality for the better of mankind. Keep that in mind as you disect the meaning of the matrix. Use your thought process for something meaningfull. Me, I am using my thought process to raise awareness to how ridiculous all of you sound... Watch the movie, enjoy the movie, dont live your life, or bring excitement into your life through a movie.. Live your own movie..... KR

Martin

Mon, 02 Jun 2003 18:54:50 -0500

Neo isn't human anymore. In the same way that the man Agent Smith took over isn't human either. I think this is what the architect was referring to when he says [quote]The Architect - The matrix is older than you know. I prefer counting from the emergence of one integral anomaly to the emergence of the next, in which case this is the sixth version. [/quote] The anomoly isn't the human being, it's part of the matrix. It's a peice of code, a program, in the same way that the agents and persephone are just programs. However, as it's taken over a human being (neo) it's still subject to hormones and emotions etc, and so to all appearances is still human. When Neo died, it wasn't Trinity's kiss that bought him back to life, it was this anomaly, that's why he now sees the matrix as code, he's a program himself. [quote]The Architect - Your life is the sum of the remainder of an unbalanced equation inherent to the programming of the Matrix. You are the eventuality of an anomoly which, despite my sincerest efforts I have been unable to eliminate from what is otherwise a harmony of mathematical precision. Or that remains a burden asiduously avoided it is not unexpected and thus not beyond a measure of control, which has led you inexorably here.[/quote] In the architects ideal Matrix, everything can be condensed into easily solvable equations. This mathematical precision creates the perfect world. However, in the perfect world there is no choice. Choice is the unbalanced equation. The Oracle is an example of this. She should now exactly what happens in the matrix. However, she is unable to predict choice. Which is why she only knows "enough" [quote]The Architect - As you are undoubtedly gathering, the anomaly's systemic, creating fluctuations in even the most simplistic equations. [/quote] The problem is, this code is able to destablise the matrix. In the same way that the world ripples when neo takes flight. If these things a left unchecked they could destroy the matrix. Which is what the architect needs to avoid. [quote]The Architect - Thus, the answer was stumbled upon by another, an intuitive program, initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche. [/quote] This I'm sure is a reference to Persephone, her role was to investigate love. (humans don't choose who they fall in love? It has something to do with that) [quote]The Architect - As I was saying, she stumbled upon a solution whereby nearly 99.9% of all test subjects accepted the program, as long as they were given a choice, even if they were only aware of the choice at a near unconscious level. While this answer functioned, it was obviously fundamentally flawed, thus creating the otherwise contradictory systemic anomaly, that if left unchecked might threaten the system itself. Ergo, those that refused the program, while a minority, if unchecked, would constitute an escalating probability of disaster. [/quote] The first bit refers to how people know that there is something wrong with the world that they live in. Why they spend all their lives wondering What is the Matrix (like neo in the first film). Once they realise that the world is not real, they can start to bend the rules. However, this is the problem, when they start to bend and break the rules they risk destroying the matrix itself. The more people "freed" from the rules of this world = increasing probability of the matrix ending. [quote]The Architect - The function of the One is now to return to the source, allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry, reinserting the prime program. After which you will be required to select from the matrix 23 individuals, 16 female, 7 male, to rebuild Zion. Failure to comply with this process will result in a cataclysmic system crash killing everyone connected to the matrix, which coupled with the extermination of Zion will ultimately result in the extinction of the entire human race. [/quote] The first bit I think, refers to neo, needing to go back to the code of the matrix (after all, it’s just one giant program right?) I think the matrix needs to be reset here (this is what is meant by reinserting the prime program), just for a while. I'm pretty sure the 23 individuals and the council in Zion being 23 is not entirely uncoincadental. I believe they are either the people the previous “one” has rescued. (6 incarnations of the matrix, the year is roughly 2199 Nebuchadnezzar was built in 2069 which allows roughly 20-30 years between “ones” notice how everyone else in Zion is in their 30s?) Also this explains why they didn’t know about the previous Zion, they weren’t people who had been freed. That’s why they didn’t know about the previous one’s [quote]The Architect - It is interesting reading your reactions. Your five predecessors were by design based on a similar predication, a contingent affirmation that was meant to create a profound attachment to the rest of your species, facilitating the function of the one. While the others experienced this in a very general way, your experience is far more specific. Vis-a-vis, love. [/quote] This is why I don’t believe neo is human, or human anymore. This bit is annoying, they’ve deliberately used lots of long words to confuse people. But basically what he means is this. “Your five predecessors were human (at least to begin with, we believed that humans would feel the life of the many (people inside the matrix), far outway the life of the few (people in Zion) (ok, I stole that from startrek, but that’s what they mean). However, neo was falling in love with trinity, his body is still human and emotions are powerful things. [quote] The Architect - Which brings us at last to the moment of truth, wherein the fundamental flaw is ultimately expressed, and the anomaly revealed as both beginning, and end. There are two doors. The door to your right leads to the source, and the salvation of Zion. The door to the left leads back to the matrix, to her, and to the end of your species. As you adequately put, the problem is choice. But we already know what you're going to do, don't we? [/quote] The first bit is the architect refering to why he didn’t want flaws in the original matrix. You can’t base a system on a flaw and expect it to run perfectly. Neo will end this matrix and begin a new one. (ok, I’m jumping ahead of myself a bit, and there are things left that he still needs to do) [quote]The Architect - Humph. Hope, it is the quintessential human delusion, simultaneously the source of your greatest strength, and your greatest weakness. Neo - If I were you, I would hope that we don't meet again. The Architect - We won't. [/quote] The architect knows what will ultimately happen. Neo will destroy the current matrix and start again, probably as the new architect. This will be the revolution, and neo will be the new creator. K? Everyone still with me? Further explanations and themes Why can Neo tell the future/feel what’s going on around the matrix? The code that he carries is, or is part of the matrix. The human brain is just a very complex computer. Neo is able to see the myriad possibilities of the matrix the same way the oracle is and the architect on his screens. For neo this haunts him as nightmares. When he is in the matrix, the code he carries allows him to know what is happening, after all, he is a god in the machine. This also helps explain how neo can stop the machines. When he realises what he actually is. Part of the matrix, he realises he’s connected not only to the Matrix even when not plugged in, but by this he’s connected to all the machines as well. (K, for this you still have to believe that neo is wireless) Choice How can the oracle know what’s going to happen if we have a choice? Simple, notice how the oracle will divine the future in one of 2 ways. Either a) “I’d ask you to take a seat but I know you’ll say no” telling them what will happen so it’ll become a self forfilling prophecy. If people believe she’s an oracle, they’ll listen to her. Or b) She’ll tell them they have a choice of things to do. “on the one hand you have the life of morpheus, and the other your own. She doesn’t now how people will choose, she is just able to see the many possibilities that the matrix will take. Agent Smith Well, any story needs a bad guy, and this is it. When smith became merged with neo at the end of the first film, he gained something, from the code neo was carrying. He can copy himself. Using up the natural resources (humans) of a given place. He’s a virus. Neo will have to destroy him when he wishes to reset the matrix. Programs are able to survive a reset of the matrix, he can’t let smith survive into his new world. Morevignon I have no fucking clue, I wasn't really paying attention in the cinema as I thought the film was rubbish. Anyone help? The Agents At first I couldn’t understand why agents existed. But they are a measure of control. The are designed to kill people who can break the rules of the matrix, and thus help prevent/delay the anomaly from appearing. This is why they tried to kill neo, even though neo is “the one” (he’s not the one until the anomaly appears. If the anomaly can be prevented from appearing the matrix can continue to exist) Further Proof. The original ending to The Matrix was altered slightly. The original shooting script has this: [quote]"Hi. It's me. I know you're out there. I can feel you now. I imagine you can also feel me. You won't have to search for me anymore. I'm done running. Done hiding. Whether I'm done fighting, I suppose, is up to you. I believe deep down, we both want this world to change. I believe that the Matrix can remain our cage or it can become our chrysalis, that's what you helped me to understand. That to be truly free, truly free, you cannot change your cage. You have to change yourself. When I used to look out at this world, all I could see was its edges, its boundaries, its leaders and laws. But now, I see another world. A different world where all things are possible. A world of hope. Of peace. I can't tell you how to get there, but I know if you can free your mind, you'll find the way."[/quote] So the matrix will still exist, and we’ll all be able to play the matrix online, yay!

Travis

Mon, 02 Jun 2003 17:53:45 -0500

I have a really intresting question that I am sere is on everyones minds. Who was the other survivor at the end of the movie who was in a coma with Neo. I heard that he is the guy that Agent Smith took his mind. And he told me that he tried killing Neo with a knife or something. This guy also said that his name might be "Bane" or something. I don't recall any of this but if you have ne idea who that guy was please e - mail me at T_gaffer41@hotmail.com thank you

zosted

Mon, 02 Jun 2003 02:05:48 -0500

Since seeing Reloaded 2 days ago, there's one thing I noticed in the movie that I can't find a reference to anywhere, except in Gilbert's message above. (By the way, I like your theory about food being used to integrate programs in the matrix): Did anyone notice that the candy the Oracle offered Neo was one of those hot tamales wrapped in red foil, ie, the red pill? And he said "You already know if I'm going to take it or not" (he does, but doesn't eat it). Then she unpeels and eats her red pill, saying "I love candy," just before saying sadly "I must go now" etc, like she has to get out of there before the shit hits the fan. Then the dozens of Smiths show up. Anyone else notice this, and did anyone see what Neo did with his candy? Also, I took the whole scene where Bane cuts himself as a sort of creepy blood-brother thing. He's crouching, waiting for Neo and the others, cuts his hand twice, then hides the knife. Then he hands something to Neo or shakes his hand - does anyone remember what happens here? I thought they shook hands, but if they had Neo would have noticed Bane's blood on his own hands. Then the kid comes up with the spoon, and Neo takes that. This is where I thought the whole Smith/Neo overlap came in -- Neo transferred something of himself to Smith when he killed him in the Matrix. Is this Smith's way of transferring part of himself to Neo via a human subtance - blood - rather than via a program, since he's in the "real"/human world of zion now. Not sure how this can transfer to Neo's ability to stop the sentinels and the multi-matrix theories. Sorry, not too many answers at this late hour, but I wanted to know if anyone else caught these tidbits. Also, when Neo was in the tv room with the Architect, several times the camera focused on one of the screens, which then became the central room -- ie, we're never sure if we're looking at neo and the Architect in the tv room or at one of the screens themselves. Just curious, but did anyone notice how many times this flip happened? It would be interesting if it was 5 ... ie, what if the One has always been Neo, and he has made the wrong choice (ie, going for the door to save humanity) 5 times already. Each time they reload the program, he thinks he's living it for the 1st time, and this time what makes it different is that Trinity is involved, Neo is in love and that is enough to make him take the seemingly unethical risk of saving her life at the cost of human extinction. Someone said that Reeves said the 3rd movie was about love, etc -- perhaps it's a statement on the power of love/being in love as a mobilizing element, a catalyst for faith/hope/taking risks, etc. yawn - let me know what you think.

RIO

Mon, 02 Jun 2003 01:56:16 -0500

Macca, This is getting good, BUT I have yet another, and believe or not, NEW PIECE OF INFORMATION that has not been discussed. It's so new, I'd call it a SPOILER for the "Matrix Revolutions", so read no further if you want to fresh eyes for the next film. I just noticed in the trailer for Revolutions (the one provided with the game, not the one shown at the theaters) that Neo comes out of his coma BLIND. There is clearly shown a scene with Neo and Trinity piloting a ship. A group of sentinels come up for attack right in front of them. Trinity holds up Neo's hand and directs it at the sentinels which are immediately disabled with the same blue electrical EMP effect that we saw at the end of Reloaded. In this scene, Neo appears disoriented and is wearing a black blindfold. For me this proves several things. FIRST, the matrix in a matrix is not true, because if the "real world" were another matrix, Neo would not have such a lingering human failing as blindness. He could simply reinsert himself, reboot, and be healthy again. The blindness "proves" that they are in the real world. SECOND, Neo "does" have the power to stop sentinels, so he must be more than human. However irrational it sounds to you in a real world setting, the trailer proves it, and it does it in a way that "does not" support a matrix in a matrix notion. Neo is a man/machine hybrid, there is no other viable explanation for this sequence. here's the llink to the trailer (again, not the one from the end of Reloaded, a different one). http://www.movie-list.com/m/matrixrevolutions.shtml the scene I'm referring to occurs right after Commander Lock's voice-over says, "In less than twelve hours the machines will reach the dock wall..." Neo may not be a literal cyborg (machine parts), or he may be, this part is unclear, but he is certainly part machine "in some way" (possibly, as I said before, just mentally). Finally to explain your Matrix 1 idea that Neo would be vulnerable to EMP waves like the sentinals if he was indeed part machine, we now have an explanation that disputes this claim. At the end of Matrix 1, Morpheus activates the EMP, and then we see Neo open his eyes and kiss Trinity. And, at the end of Reloaded, Neo releases an EMP wave with his eyes wide open and looking at the sentinals. Thus he comes out of his coma blind. Apparently, Neo can only be affected by an EMP if it enters his brain via his eyes. This would also go a long way towards explaining the ubiquitous use of shades in the matrix environment. No one seems to question why everyone who is a combatant wears shades in the matrix. Example: ALL the zion/human matrix visitors, ALL agents, the asian protector of the Oracle, the white dreadlock twins who work for merovingian, merovingian's other henchmen, etc., ALL of these people wear shades. Suddenly, when you think about it, it seems silly that "all" these characters would be wearing shades "just" for style. There must be something else to the shades that are worn by anyone who is a fighter. You'll notice that non-fighters never wear shades in the matrix. Example: the oracle, the architect, the keymaker, merovingian, persephone, etc. You might try to say this argues for "your" matrix in a matrix point, but I think it is simply an "eyes are the window to the soul" metaphor and says that anyone who is in a programmed environment, or relies on programming to function in the real world must protect their optic paths (eyes). The evidence for Neo being part machine, in some way, is becoming too large to refute.

Macca

Sun, 01 Jun 2003 16:44:00 -0500

I can't say that my weight is firmly in the matrix-within-a-matrix corner. I'm kind of arguing that case because I feel its a valid one that people are dismissing too easily. Trinity blocking out the EMP from Neo? It's kind of clutching at straws. And also, say it was the real world and Neo was a machine how is he physically communicating the message to the sentinels? Has he got some radio transmitter in his brain? Wouldn't the crew of the Neb have picked this up? If any of Neo was physically machine I think it would have been noticed by the crew. If it was a human body but with his personality written in code (a la Bane) then he wouldn't have the necessary physical equipment for transmitting a message even if he was compatible in code with them. I've got the trailer for Revolutions on my PC and you're right, it doesn't show anything different or anything in a new world. Although we don't know just how similar this third world would be to either the Matrix or the Zion/Desert world. There is one thing which could indicate it though. The first shot of the trailer is Neo opening his eyes as if he is awakened (is this his first experience of the third world?). He doesnt have plugs in his arms, head etc but they might not need this just because they do in the programmed Zion/Desert world. And there is nothing in the trailer that shows Neo in the Zion world. Also if there were a big thing like this they wouldn't give it away in the trailer. P.S. On another note the voice over of the trailer seems to be that of the new Oracle (the Oracle in her new "shell"). I hope she is as good as the old one as I thought the Oracle fitted the part superbly.

RIO

Sun, 01 Jun 2003 13:27:31 -0500

Duffy said, agent1:he is STILL... agent 3:only human EXACTLY. It is clear from the Revolutions trailer in which we see shocked reactions to Neo from Morpheus and Niobe in differenct scenes that indicate Neo has undergone yet another transformation or shown them something new. Neo has already flown at super sonic speeds, entered the body of an agent and blow it to pieces, etc. What else could possibly shock them about Neo at this point other than finding out that he isn't what they thought he was...not quite human. Regarding Macca's post about the EMP, I must admit that I thought about this and it's a good point. The only thing I've come up with is that when that scene happens in Matrix 1, you'll notice that Trinity has her entire body wrapped around Neo's head protectively. Perhaps this difused the EMP's effects against Neo's brain somehow. Either way, I still think there is scant evidence to support a matrix in a matrix idea. Look at the trailer for Revolutions, it's clear that the playing fields remain the same. Something else changes, and I'm betting it is the role/profile of Neo. He will undergo a figurative/literal transformation. That transformation will reveal him to be a man/machine hybrid.

Duffy

Sun, 01 Jun 2003 12:53:43 -0500

About Neo beeing a machine:i think it is , because at the beginig of the movie , when the three agents enter the door they say something like this: agent 1:it's him! agent2:the anomaly agent1:do we proced? agent2:yes agent1:he is STILL... agent 3:only human What do you think about this?

Macca

Sun, 01 Jun 2003 07:47:58 -0500

Many of you are arguing that Neo is a man/machine hybrid and hence he was taken out by an EMP that destroyed the sentinels at the end of Reloaded. Also Bane was knocked into a coma after the "mysterious" EMP that knocked out 5 hovercrafts at the counterattack. This all sounds well and good but you're forgetting something. At the end of The Matrix when the sentinels are attacking the Neb after Neo comes back to life and exits the matrix an EMP is triggered. This takes out the sentinels but Neo is perfectly fine to engage in some passionate kissing with Trinity. I think he did in fact stop the sentinels (probably due to a matrix-within-a-matrix) - it's far too similar to the bullet stopping to be coincedence. The over exertion cause his coma.

psychofox

Sun, 01 Jun 2003 03:50:20 -0500

OH MAN! Some of these posts.... I think we are all getting a little too involved in anylising every single detail of the film and then speculating on it! For now we should just al stick to what we KNOW. As it stands I do not believe in what AL says about Neo waking up and it was al a dream. Thats is the sort of ending that would ruin the whole idea of the film. What we do know is that the game TheMatrixOnline was revealed on the 14th May which tells us that the game (which involves players interacting in the Matrix) will take place after the film trilogy. This means the MAtrix will still exist after Revolutions. TBC......

RIO

Sat, 31 May 2003 20:38:42 -0500

It's wild, I have just watched the entire "Animatrix" DVD and now I have one more tidbit that suggests the man/machine hybrid theory is true. In Reloaded, we are introduced to a kid who is like Neo's mascot in Zion. Trinity asks Neo, "How does he (the kid) always know when you're here?" First hint. The original back story of this kid is told in the Animatrix short "Kid's Story". When the kid is first awakened to the real world (just after dying in the matrix, eh hem, like Neo), Trinity says, "I never thought self actualization was possible". Meaning, she's never seen anyone be able to wake themselves up without assistance and after death, which "is" what the kid does. This is rare behaviour similar only to that of Neo. But Trinity is wrong, she "has" seen this before. It's just that her belief in "the magic of love" blinds her to the facts before her. In the first Matrix, when Neo awakens in the real world after dying at the hands of Agent Smith, it is not Trinity's kiss that revives him (which would be magic), but in fact it is Neo himself who wills himself to awaken due to his belief/machine consciousness force of will (like the Kid in "Kid's Story"). The Kid and Neo are the only two known cases of a person being able to wake themselves up from the matrix after being killed. The Kid is special...like Neo. I believe the kid is also a prototype man/machine consiousness hybrid. What else supports this? Well, we see that Neo can tell whenever a machine consciousness has entered the real world from the matrix. Example: Neo knows when Bane re-enters the real world with a machine consciousness (Smith's). Example: Neo can "feel" when the sentinels are coming towards the end of Reloaded. Similarly, the kid knows whenever Neo is around because they are both machine/man hybrids. Plot wise, most assume that the kid is just a cute kid hanging around Zion always waiting for Neo. I disagree. Reloaded gives him too much screen time for him to just be scenery. I think the Kid will play a pivotal role in the final film. I think the Kid will sense that Bane is a hybrid (man/machine consciousness) with evil intent and somehow help to stop him from killing Neo in Revolutions. Also, someone asked, "why did the agent during the freeway chase BLEED when Morpheus cut him?" Good question. We've never seen this before. I think this is another foreshadowing clue. This scene led me to think about the fight Neo has with Merovingian's henchmen. At one point, he stops an axe with his hand and then a drop of blood comes out. Then Merovingian, on cue, misdirects the audience and says, "see, he's only human." I don't believe Merovingian. I think if Morpheus or Trinity had received the same axe blow, they'd be missing a hand. What human stops an axe with his hand and only bleeds a couple of drops of blood? I suspect that the agent on the freeway bleeding from Morpheus' sword cut, and then Neo bleeding from the axe blow is yet another hint hint linking Neo to the machines. Finally, at the end of Reloaded, when it appears that Neo stops the sentinals, there are a couple of possible explanations. One: It wasn't Neo. His hands reaching out were him trying to communicate with the machines. But just then, another ship sent an EMP blast, which would explain why it disabled the sentinels and Neo as well (i.e. put him into a coma). We see another Zion ship pass over the scene shortly after Neo collapses. The only leap you have to make to believe this is to believe that the Zion ship that sent the blast was able to start its engines back up fast enough (they put the engines to sleep when sending an EMP blast) to fly over Neo and Trinity so quickly. I don't think that is a big leap. Two: that Neo reached out and attempted to communicate with the sentinals and the process overwhelmed both man and machine simultaneously. The other reason I feel this last scene has nothing to do with "a matrix in a matrix": In the trailer for Revolutions, we see "numerous" fight scenes played out in the matrix that we already know. All of these scenes appear to be pivotal fight scenes like in Reloaded. I think if Revolutions were going to reveal a matrix in a matrix, I don't think that new matrix level would simply duplicate terrain and similar action sequences that we've seen before in the matrix we already know. Also, I say again, matrix in a matrix would be a lazy move for the Wachowskis as writers. I don't think they are that lazy, I think they are more ambitious. side note: Regarding posts about Asimov's robot laws being a part of the Matrix, i.e. "robots cannot kill man, they must serve man." NO. This can't be possible because we see robots kills millions of humans in the Animatrix short "Second Renaissance". This short was written by the Wachowskis. So no, the robots/machines/programs in The Matrix can indeed kill humans.

Macca

Sat, 31 May 2003 06:52:54 -0500

Cypher probably did his dirty work by arranging his contacts with the Agents first (remember when Neo scared the "bejesus" out of him? Cypher then looked around to see anyone else and flicked off 6 monitors, stuff he didnt want others to see) The Matrix loaded him up and provided him with aan exit. The only problem was that hed have to put that electrode in the back of his head but I'm sure this could be done with practise. Just because everyone else is helped by someone else (probably to avoid the disorientation it causes) doesnt mean they have to be.

LeGart

Sat, 31 May 2003 06:44:09 -0500

Some comments from Panama City, Panama... I agree with the most recent postings about Neo being part human, part machine... in fact, all the ones that have been taken out of their "cocoons" into the real world were hooked on cables mentally and physically... the plot from the first movie does not suggest in any way the matrix within a matrix idea... but... but there is something now "troubling my mind"... How did Cypher got into the Matrix to speak with Agent Smith without being noticed? he had dinner with Agent Smith, remember? when he was planning the betrayal... so who sent him in? Did he hooked himself up? How did he get back out? Who found him an exit? Interesting point for me.... any thoughts?

Warlos

Sat, 31 May 2003 00:53:10 -0500

I think that there is one thing that few of us are considering and thats the Wachowski Brothers' intent. As most of you know (and if you didnt you wouldnt be on this site wasting your time trying to make sense of the movie)the Matrix is more than high-action sci-flick with a philosophical twist. It's a collection of different elements and mediums ingrained in pop culture. It borrows its visual style and storytelling from japanese animation (ghost in the shell and akira to name a couple)and its fight scenes from hong kong cinema. The plot has strong roots in early cyberpunk novels by authors like Isaac Asimov and has a deeply ingrained theme of metaphysical philosophy which challenges the foundations of reality. All mixed together with religious parallels, be they buddist, christian, muslim, or hindu,and a dab of pop culture. It's a story about humanity in all its unique splendor and unavoidable horror. It begs the age old question of as to whether or not we are truly free. And it does so by taking different means of storytelling throughout human history (from religious doctrine, to philosophical writing, to comic books)and combining them into film. After all if it didnt, then there would be so much room for interpretation of its plot and meaning. Now as for whether i think there is a second matrix, i'd have to say no. It would lead to a convoluted plot, and besides the machines are too confident in the perfection of their calculations to think that humanity and even Neo would stand a chance. The do not understand the concept of choice and will never be able to cope with free will. To them there are only two alternatives: 1)The one carries out his intended function and the matrix is reloaded for the seventh time or 2)The One chooses imminent doom and condemns humanity to extinction at the machines hands...either way, in their binary mindset, they win. However they underestimate the power of the human spirit. Anyway, it would lead to a confused and convoluted plotline to make any indications of a second matrix and it would take away from the ultimate importance of Zion and Humanities last stand.

AL

Fri, 30 May 2003 23:21:11 -0500

I have been really thinking about this and every time I see the Matrix it really seems that it could be true... Okay, know how Neo is at his computer sleeping in the first Matrix. On it computer it seems he was looking at pictures and news articles about Morpheus. From this we know that Neo is very interested in Morpheus. From there when Neo wakes up and his computer seems to be running itself and says "the matrix has you" and all that. He ends up going to the party and where he first meets Trinity and learns she was the one on his computer, and tells him about Morpheus and how she knows he's been looking for an answer. The next day he wakes up late and goes to work. Neo's boss gives him a lecture, Neo seems to be not listening and looks like he doesn't care. I noticed how Neo's boss resembles the agents a lot and even calls him Mr. Anderson just like Smith. This is where i'll get to my point. The whole Matrix movie seems to all be centered on Neo, and how he is the one. As Neo was living in the "matrix" from his attitude, all Neo is, is a man who is not satisfied by the world, and wants to live in another world not based on laws or rules. Neo hates who he is and he is also like Smith who hates reality and can't stand living in it. Neo is just another guy, dreaming that he was something different, wishing that he was the one with all the power. Just think about it how Neo's whole life was about computers, software, and especially hacking. All the Matrix is, is a program that can be hacked and altered, just like Neo would hack into his company and sell whatever information was on those mini-discs. Neo's boss represents the agents who are trying to control the human race. The agents also symbolize the world as it is, having laws, and restrictions. Think about it. "Revolutions" ends with maybe a final conclusion, or maybe ends with confusion by Neo discovering there is a infinite amount of matrices. All of the sudden the screen blacks out and shows Neo waking up in front of his computer, before he was even contacted by Trinity with the news articles on Morpheus on his computer screen and all. He realizes that everything was made up, a manifestation of his own mind. A make-believe dream that Neo only wishes was true. It shows Neo close-up and he says, "shit". Neo can't take that it was all a dream, because he can't stand living in the world as it is. The next scene it shows Neo hanging himself, and then the end... The whole dream theory is also suggested by what Morpheus says to Neo in the first Matrix, "You have the look of a man who accepts what he sees, because he is expecting to wake up." When Morpheus asks Neo if he believes in fate he responds, "No, I don't because I don't like the idea that I'm not in CONTROL of my life." This tells how Neo hates not being in control and his own mind makes up the whole thing in his mind. This probably will not be what happens, but if it was just think of how the people would react to when Neo wakes up. They would be like, "Oh, my God!" They would be speechless after this. This ending is also kind of like the one Twighlight Zone where the guy is about to get hanged but the rope breaks and he runs away, while he's being shot at. He gets away and finds his old home. He sees his wife and his kids and starts to run towards them. Right as he is about to hug them, the man gets hanged just like he was going to before. It was all made up.... That one was one of the best ones. Just watch the first matrix, keeping in mind that its just a dream, you'll be suprised how things come together.

sired

Fri, 30 May 2003 18:22:17 -0500

Another thing... Does anyone know why the Agent fighting Morpheus on the truck bleeds???

sired

Fri, 30 May 2003 18:00:50 -0500

I won't say how I feel about the movie in general, since I think I'll hurt some Matrix Reloaded fans. But if we are talking about how Smith entered the "real" world by modifying Bane's code... Can't be Neo's code somehow rewritten by the intrussion of Smith??? That would explain the fact that he felt the sentinels (they are A.I. like Smith) and stoped them.

RIO

Fri, 30 May 2003 06:09:02 -0500

sorry, most of those question marks "?" actually represent quotation marks ""

RIO

Fri, 30 May 2003 06:06:35 -0500

Whew, I?ve actually read every post here, so I can avoid repetition in my comments. I?ve just seen ?Reloaded? for the second time, and my belief that Neo is part machine has been strengthened. I would also like to say the movie plays ?much? better the second time. The first time, I put it my theory somewhat crudely by calling Neo a cyborg. In fact, I believe he is a human with a machine consciousness. I think he was ?grown? by the machines and implanted with a machine consciousness. The precedent for this is shown when Agent Smith?s machine consciousness is implanted into Bane in the real world. The Wachoskis want to tell a great story, not just a logical one, so the matrix within a matrix story is logical, but not consistent with the metaphysical, philosophical leaps the Wachowskis like to take. Matrix within a matrix simply doesn't take much imagination on their part, so I'm going to give them more credit than that (geez, I think they've earned it). It would be very consistent for them to suggest that man and machine can share consciousness, morality, and (albeit corny) love. Also, based on the plot of Animatrix?s ?Renaissance?, it would be consistent for them to suggest that consciousness and emotions transcend flesh. Examples: -Persephone "craves" a kiss from Neo. -Smith (in Matrix 1) says he "hates" it in the matrix. -too many other examples of "machine emotions" to list Beyond that, there are SO MANY many hints listed on this page by others, but one I haven?t heard was the one that jumped out at me upon second viewing. When Neo and the Council elder talk privately on Zion?s engineering level, the elder makes a very important analogy. He says that he doesn?t know how Zion's water purification system works, just that it?s a machine and it works to serve its purpose to keep the people of Zion alive. RIGHT AFTER THAT STATEMENT he says (paraphrasing), ?Neo, I don?t know what makes you tick, or how you do the things you do, but you serve an important purpose too.? For me, this was like a sledgehammer hint saying Neo is indeed part machine in some way. Another hint is embedded in Animatrix?s ?Renaissance? written by the Wachowskis. The machine city is called ?O1?. This is important in that geographically (you can check this, it?s true), the machine city is located in what was the city of Babylon, which now (ironically) happens to be Iraq. Bible references (which the directors rely heavily on) depict the enlightened leaving Babylon (the matrix) for the righteous city of Zion (zion). So we have a religious allegory in play that links Bablyon (the matrix) with the numbers 0 and 1. I think Smith represents "0". 0 is infinite/nothing, Smith is infinitely duplicated, and in a way, nothing--he even admits to Neo at the beginning of Burly Brawl that he no longer has a purpose (a surprisingly human-like confession that few have noted). Neo represents ?1?. Neo is called ?the one? about a billion times by man and machine (the Oracle most notably), I think this name has more significance than simply a nickname designation. It suggests programming symmetry. It suggests that Neo and Smith are somehow brothers. Smith specifically says that he and Neo are linked, perhaps he knows they are brothers, and thus wants to kill his goody goody, golden boy brother. I believe they are somehow the same, somehow BOTH machine/man hybrids. Binary twins. 01.

Marty MC Fly

Fri, 30 May 2003 04:45:22 -0500

Proofing the loop ending of matrix trilogy... While I were watching The Matrix Revolutions teaser with slow motion...I realized that straightforward to the end of the teaser there is a train (named LOOP) coming through to screen...I don't think this is coincidence...;)

Henry

Thu, 29 May 2003 21:34:31 -0500

Hi, I apologizes for my spelling, I�m from Mexico. I just want to comment about Neo stopping the sentinels. He can feel them because to this code (software) that he is carrying in his brain. Is like some kind of wireless communication or something like that, I guess. The thing that is different when he say �Something is different, I can feel them� may be is that it was the first time he was at the surface of the �real world�. He always had been in the Matrix or in the ship or in Zion and now that he is standing in the real world may be this �communication� has become stronger and he can feel the sentinels and even stop them. This �communication� has been present along all this part (reloaded), because Neo could perceive when Smith arrived to the real world, (he wake up suddenly). The �dreams� about Trinity falling weren�t dreams, they were pemonitions, so they were some kind of transmission may be from the oracle (in some previous enter of Neo to the Matrix) because she knows about these future facts. There are some others examples like the boy of the spoon, or that Neo already knows that the sentinels will send a bomb, etc. Thanks. All your comments are very interesting. This forum is great.

Dan

Thu, 29 May 2003 17:37:20 -0500

Pat, I wasn't totally dismissing the world thats painted in the Matrix movie isn't possible right now, but rather; relative to our own reality to create a matrix is impossible right now. Even to try and create a Matrix by normal humans living in the "real world" in the matrix would be impossible for them relative to their "reality" in their current time. Yes, I agree with you to a point that its possible that our reality may well be a "reality" within a "matrix" type world, and we all exist within in some super advanced "computer", but thats more of a philosophical debate, which I don't know much about. From my background in computers, I took what what Noor asked from a technical point of view.

`lugo

Thu, 29 May 2003 16:52:15 -0500

I always took Morpheus' saying that the mind makes it real to mean psychosomatic effects. http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=psychosomatic&r=3 Benedict Branca: thats Bane, the one who agent smith infected and then when out through the telephone. And now just to be fair i finaly came up with an argument for how neo could control machines with his mind outside the matrix that doesn't invole the Matrix in Matrix idea. Thing is i just remembered that he has a great big peace of electronics stuck to the back of his head and into his brain. It could be possible that it has some internal mechanism that allows it to transmit signals, although that's unlikely seeing as the sentinals often have trouble locating rebel ships. But still, just wanted to show that i take all arguments into account ;)

Marty MC Fly

Thu, 29 May 2003 16:03:52 -0500

I read all posts, watched Reloaded at only one time...But in the movie there is some clue which is easily noticable...I think The Oracle and The Architect have an argument about an something secret...We saw what The Oracle said always happened exactly...but For Architect all things are different...He talks like the leader of machines...I think Matrix wasn't destroyed(we will see in the next sequel) and also real world which is supposed Zion is real world to only the some level consciousness...WB tries all ways sometimes exaggeratly for pointing out this to audience (for example rave scene) So I think the end of the movie, We will see that Neo will have an ability the control of the all system(So he is going to know The ONE undoubtely at that time)...And he will give all Matrix inhabitants to chance for realizing the real real world which is neither Matrix nor Zion(somewhere in there isn't any need for machines...Maybe Neo will make this place to prove that we don't really need machines to survive...) ...At that point ofcourse he should sacrifice living as a slave normal human...He will wake up in front of his computer just like as if nothing happend...And then door is knocked(Only this conclusion make this movie really unforgottable)...Bam...All green numbers and letters come...

Thu, 29 May 2003 15:56:37 -0500

I stumbled upon this site and the comments made here are great. The multiple-matrix theory actually answered a basic question I had from the first movie. In the first Matrix the premise was established that if you died in the matrix then you died in the real world. A premise that does not make sense at all. After all, how could events in a virtual world have physical manifestations in the real world? They can't unless the real world is also virtual. Which leads to the next question. If you don't die in the real world, do you wake up or move on to another virual world or come back as someone else, i.e. a form of reincarnation? It also doesn't make sense that the machines would let their source of energy die just because of car accidents, murders, diseases or wars. I can't buy Morpheus's flipant explanation that "the body can't live without the mind." How could the mind leave the body? In the Matrix we cleary saw two matrices in operation. One that is controlled by the machines and the other aboard the Nebucanezer for training. In the Matrix Reloaded we again clearly saw two operating matrices. One that is controlled by the machines and the other in Zion. When the Nebucanezer came to dock, the gates and weapons were controlled by people jacked into the Zion mainframe and the matrix that it created. Seems to me that if matrices can exist in parallel then they can also exist embedded within each other. On a slightly different tack, I would like to point out that all those individuals with implants that can jack into a computer are technically cyborgs. It wouldn't be unreasonable that some implants are more up-to-date than others. It also wouldn't unreasonable to assume that some implants have features that other implants don't.

TruthBeTold

Thu, 29 May 2003 14:22:21 -0500

To Benedict Branca...do you pay attention to the movies??

Benedict Branca

Thu, 29 May 2003 09:01:12 -0500

did cypher killed in the first one or is that him lying in a bed next to Neo at the end of Matrix: reloaded?

`lugo

Thu, 29 May 2003 05:01:29 -0500

Chuck: The think is that the Animatrix episode (Kid's Story) establishes that it is possible to die in the Matrix while your mind survives out of it. And the fact that we have that same kid running around Zion in reloaded suggests to me that he has yet some part to play in this. My views on "He fights for us": I didn't really see anything special here. To me that quote sounded much like "What is he doing?" "He's starting to believe" from the first movie. The tone of voice was definitely the same, so i dismissed those words as just his way of speaking.

Chuck

Thu, 29 May 2003 02:06:12 -0500

Dadane and 'lugo: Ok, I do agree that neo does not have real powers in real life but i like to look at evidence for both cases. Think about this, Neo was dead and came back to life, regardless whatlevel of the matrix (if there are different levels) he is on, he was dead in the matrix which means he was dead in the real "real world" no matter how many levels of matrix that is through. This is able to be established because no one else has been able to will them selves to life after death, and i do not believe neo did either. I am not sure of how he did it, but somehow his body must have reset or something. We also know he was dead because the oracle said he would die and he did. Point is that the posablity of supernatural powers cannot be ruled out, even if we don't like it. We can not allow Noseeum inferences to overpower logical thinking Pat and Macca: It is nice to see other people are starting to pay more attention to the Philosophy aspects of the movie. If Morpheus and the Merovingian's talk, then read Peter van Inwagen on determinism and indeterminism, as well as the No Choice Principle.

Gilbert Irons

Thu, 29 May 2003 01:25:37 -0500

Think of how food is used to integrate programs within the matrix. The cake given to the blonde was 'written' by the Merovingian, ie a subroutine of some sort. It's been a while since I saw M1, but I remember the oracle offering Neo a cookie, and saying something like, "when you're finished eating it you'll be as right as rain..." Surely this could be some code that the oracle wrote? And then, in M2, she offers him some candy. We don't see Neo eating it, maybe it comes in later?

Gilbert Irons

Thu, 29 May 2003 01:11:13 -0500

A tidbit: Persephone is the wife of Hades in Greek mythology. The beautifuk daughter of Demeter and Zeus, she was abducted and then fell in love with Hades, king of the underworld.

TruthBeTold

Thu, 29 May 2003 00:15:23 -0500

I do not think any of the original 23 are alive within Zion now...I mean there are 250,000 people in Zion, even with the extractions it would take a lot more than enough years to turn a head of hair fully grey to fully populate Zion up to 250,000 Centuries probably passed since the choice was given to the 5th one and the original 23 are probably dead and buried and probably were fed a false memory of how they escaped the Matrix. And I read somewhere about the Counselor being a previous 'One'...Lets be real now...that is a stupid idea...I do not doubt the idea that the Counselor does indeed know more than he tells but as far as him being a previous 'One' it just doesnt tie in chronologically and logically. And all the ideas about the Matrix within a Matrix make sense, I mean the Architect kind of suggest it by stating that the humans needed a choice...perhaps a choice between the real-world matrix(Zion) and the fake worl Matrix (The Matrix) but I just hope this isn't the case because A. its too easy to think of, and B. Its not really fulfilling. I'd be happier if Neo donned a Red S than if there is indeed a Matrix within a Matrix. And I still believe Neo is a Program inserted into a human mind, and (to go off on a tangent) Agent Smith had no idea that answering the phone would send him into Bane's body, that was a coincidence, back to Neo being a programmed entity (Which is what the sentient programs should be called, the sentinels are machines, the Agents, Oracle, Architect, Merovingian, Persephone, are all Programmed Entities) The Architect says that the source code has to be reimplemented for the cycle to continue again so no matter what, if he is a complete program or an incomplete program (whereas the code is only part of his persona not the entire thing[which is what i believe]) the part of him which made him have such control over the Matrix has to be a code, otherwise why would they need it back? I kinda lost focus at the end of what I just typed because I'm watching "Enough" on HBO...so if it gets a lil sketchy let me know...but can I please have more speculation on the "He Fights for us" by Morpheus in the Matrix Revolutions Teaser. Because that is a rather speculatory happening...do you agree?

Macca

Wed, 28 May 2003 20:44:34 -0500

Pat, I think you should look into the work of Descartes who wrote much work on what is truly reality. He tried to suggest that perhaps the only true certainties are the laws of pure mathematics but as room 101 suggests you can make someone think that 2 + 2 = 5. He eventually settled on the only truth we are certain of. Because we can think, and consider such topics, we know that we exist, although not in what form. Hence the world famous Cartesian Principle: I think, therefore I am.

Macca

Wed, 28 May 2003 20:40:01 -0500

I saw the movie for the second time today. About the ending, there is the blue electricity sparks around the sentinels when they stop in front of Neo like the EMP. However this could be what happens to sentinals when they are broken by anything. However some people suggested it was the same EMP that put Neo in a coma. I noticed that Neo only collapsed AFTER the sentinals, not at the same time. Seems more like he was worn out by the effort. I've got another question for the forum. In the architect's room what are the images of Neo on the screen? Some suggest that they show the responses of the previous five. However after the Architect says "this is the sixth version" when *our* Neo is saying "either no-one told me.." another one is saying "there have been five before me?". This couldn't have been said by one of the previous five as none of them have had five before them. Perhaps they are showing the possible choices Neo thinks of saying to each remark. Links in with the whole choice (red pill/blue pill, left door/right door) thing.

Pat

Wed, 28 May 2003 20:36:41 -0500

First off, my extension of gratitude to all those that put their time into interpreting the movie. There are many logical explanations given, and in reading the posts, I have a much clearer understanding of at least what the W Bros may have been aiming for with their piece. But, to address Noor's question, which was dismissed by Dan's answer regarding the lack of such computer development in today's world. The foundations of the movie are cleary based upon many philisophical/religious arguments that have existed in our human history. When the behaviorist BF Skinner said in the 50's, "Free will is an illusion," he wasn't referring to science fiction, but to scientific facts discovered in experimentation, particularly the phenomenon of stimulus-response reactions. The W Bros have a skill for story telling to be sure. Their framing of these philosophical topics accurately apply metaphysics to the modern day world in which we exist. What they do with the movie is extend the proposition of free will being an illusion to a fictional reality. While I doubt that the Bros would suggest that Neo is a real person, that electronic sentinals actually control our actions, etc., I'm sure they would be comfortable in the belief that in our real 2003 world, we exist without any free will, or that at the very least the possibility of us not possessing free will is a good likelihood. Dan's dismissal of this possibility seems to line up with many of the posts here, which limit themselves to the reality that the movie creates, rather than the reality that the movie reflects. Is there a God or an Architect? Are our every actions premeditated towards a final destination? I can only answer... quite possibly. Perhaps there is a similar Matrix in which we live, and perhaps it is as contrived as the science fiction that the Bros have created. Who's to say that the world's history hasn't actually advanced to the year 2199, and we exist today as a source of energy for those existing in the future? While clearly we don't possess the technology to do so today, who's to say that it hasn't been developed in some future of ours? This scheme reminds me of the great time machine paradox: if a time machine were ever to be created, would we not know about it by the time the travellers arive back in our time? And in lieu of any evidence of such travelers, does that necesarily mean that such a machine will never or doesn't exist? Again, we can't reach any level of certitude about this, but to respond to Noor: sure, it's a possibility that such a Matrix exists, and I would believe that the Bros, if pressed, would admit to believing in such an alternate existence, even in the world of 2003. Unfortunately, no amount of posting or discussion on the subject will allow us to arrive at a definite answer: just as all the philosophers/historians/scientists etc. couldn't solve it when they dealt with the same issues. Until some sort of End comes, or until some Zion presents itself to those existing in our 2003 real word, we can only look towards artists such as the W Bros to explore the infinite possibilities of our potentially purposeful existence. pppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppp

Sajj

Wed, 28 May 2003 19:29:46 -0500

/me = tired. Sorry for all the misspelling but it's getting late over here ;P

Wed, 28 May 2003 19:29:37 -0500

/me = tired. Sorry for all the misspelling but it's getting late over here ;P

Sajjman

Wed, 28 May 2003 19:25:44 -0500

Btw , stop saying that The Oracle , the agents , Mr.smith and so on are MASHINES? For fucks sake they're software (or now smith has become som sort of virus , but in some extendt neo is a virus also?). Stop saying wrong even if its said in context...

Sajjman

Wed, 28 May 2003 19:22:04 -0500

I've read everyone of your comments on the movie and it's been very interesting indeed to read your thoughts and thesis, since many of them are fucking brilliant. Just love the depth of this movie, metaphysics in a movie ;) The Wachowski brothers are incredible, image people having big forums about an actionmovie. Got to give some creds to lugo and kallisto for excellent arguments, especially that one about "self awakening" that seems to be the case with neo in the end, and the whole thing about Kid, that he "senses" Neo everytime they arrive at Zion. P.S The references to the origin of the names they have are really facinating, though its sad that they didnt show the one about neo in the movie. rearrange N E O -> O N E . Morpheus = Dreamgod, that's his role and he's talking about a dream when the nebucadnezzar is blown up. /Sajj

TruthBeTold

Wed, 28 May 2003 18:55:28 -0500

Neo is human...he is supposed to be human...thats how the machines designed him...just like Agent Smith is now human...his consciousness is just programmed. Thats what I mean by Neo is a program...and "He Fights for Us" is still a very skeptical saying...

Dan

Wed, 28 May 2003 16:08:44 -0500

Noor: Here is a link to IBM and one of the projects they are working on regarding nanotechnology http://www.research.ibm.com/resources/news/20010425_Carbon_Nanotubes.shtml

Dan

Wed, 28 May 2003 16:02:21 -0500

Noor, Matrix is a science fiction movie, so, it should answer your question. However, Virtual reality, as in the Matrix quality, is still a long time off. You would need a computer that would be capable of processing thousands of trillions and trillions of instructions per second. Those types of computers are still many, many years away, but I do believe that those types of computer will be around maybe within the next 100 - 200 years due to the advancement of nanotechnology. With nano technology, scientists are predicting that they can fit the most powerful and fastest computers we currently have on to the head of a pin. But you want to do further research, look into nano technology.

TruthBeTold

Wed, 28 May 2003 13:43:25 -0500

Anonymous seems to confuse the internet with a thesis paper...Are you going to give us all F's? Stupid ass

Kallisto

Wed, 28 May 2003 13:33:45 -0500

If anything, this movie, its predecessor and its follow up should teach us all one basic point of thruth and that is "Whatever the thinker thinks, the Prover proves". As long as you keep this in mind whilst speculating the conversations will be much more enjoyable and much more informative.

`lugo

Wed, 28 May 2003 11:30:25 -0500

ok, anonymous, now your turn to say something in danish :D

DaDane

Wed, 28 May 2003 10:35:25 -0500

To the anonymous guy - not all of us are american. I myself is danish, so english (american) are not my native tounge. I believe that you can read what I writes. I don't see the point in studying english just to be allowed to use the internet. You are the moron who should stay in school. Not me!

Noor Ahmad

Wed, 28 May 2003 10:29:39 -0500

hello , my name is noor ahmad and i belong from karachi , pakistan i just got a one question but first you have to make me so much clear about the film "THE MATRIX RELOADED". my question is that "is this possible in the real world which i have seen in the film" because as far far as my search i think that this possible but i am not sure that this is possible because i really intersted in this field" please give me the comments as soon as possible best regards/noor ahamd

Wed, 28 May 2003 10:26:53 -0500

I believe that most of you need to learn how to spell correctly. It is unfortunate that the majority of you speak as if you got your english degree at K-Mart, at least learn how to spell correctly. Yo, no what m sayin yo yo dog? Yo.... Stay in School. Fools.

Gilbert Irons

Wed, 28 May 2003 10:02:41 -0500

The Architect knew that Neo was going to take the door on the left. It wasn't different to the other five times, and did not 'suprise' the Architect. Just before, he talks about reading the emotions going through Neo, over-riding common sense and logic. He knows that The One will live up to that love. (Anomaly?) The fact that the 'oracle' foresees the love between Neo and Trinity shows that it is not a new thing in this iteration of the Matrix, but has happened the same way every time. (Like the other things she predicts). The problem this time around, I guess, is the virus Smith, which has aquired a pseudo-will from the way that Neo penetrated him at the end of M1. Maybe it was at that point that he got pushed, (dumped?) into the programmer's corridor, and learned the ways of the rogue programs. His 'purpose' now seems to be to infect the whole Matrix, effectively killing the human minds. Thus he becomes a threat to both man and machine, who may need to work together to destroy him. P.S. Persephone can kiss me anytime!

Macca

Wed, 28 May 2003 08:03:26 -0500

Some interesting theories going on. I actually have far more issue with Neo being a machine that the matrix-within-a-matrix idea. I can't really explain my problem with Neo being a machine.. it would just be... well rubbish. The architect tells Neo he is the "eventuality of an anomaly". I think the anomaly actually means the 1% who reject the matrix. The eventuality is that one person in this anomaly will eventually become entirely adept at manipulating the matrix world. If Neo was merely a machine the Architect could surely have just got rid of him, rather than being "unable to eliminate". As for the matrix-within-a-matrix idea, I'm fine with it. I do think that the two different worlds (the 1999 and 2199 ones) are just on different branches of the machine mainframe (which was shown as the white corridors.) The 2199 world being just another matrix would explain why they only thought it was around this date rather than 600 (6 x 100 years for each anomaly) years in the future. A new 2199 world is created from the "source". Also, lugo raised a very good point when he said what was actually happening when Neo stopped the sentinals if 2199 was the real world. Smith can indeed issue a strike as he is in the Matrix in the first movie. However, Neo isnt connected to any matrix so how could he get a message to the machines? As for the thing about Neo finding out which "level" was the real real world Neo could just continue to try his powers until they no longer worked. (He never used them in 2199 because he never considered the possibility.) P.S. The birth thing is no problem to work out. When two people conceive in the matrix the machines symply remove the sperm and egg cells from the individuals comatosed bodies in the power plant and allow an embryo to develop in a new pod. Then they just feed the electrical signals into the foetus brain (once it has a nervous system) to tell it that it is in its mothers womb, until it is born and continues with its life like everyone else in the matrix.

random person

Wed, 28 May 2003 04:52:35 -0500

TruthBeTold: I don't think there is any way Neo is a program. I took this into consideration in forming some theories, but after thinking about it awhile, and going back to watch the movie to look for other things, I noticed that they made an effort to link "Neo" and "human" about 50 times. Examples: The Architect explains Neo is an anomoly, but says without a doubt he is human. "You have many questions and although the process has altered your consciousness you remain irrevocably human, ergo some of my answers you will understand and some of them you will not." The agents at the beginning of the movie (before the "anomoly" business is explained) encounter Neo and say, "it's the anomoly... do we proceed? ...yes, he is still only human." Examples such as these provide a strong case to proving Neo's humanity.

DaDane

Wed, 28 May 2003 03:46:27 -0500

TruthBeTold: How about this There's a billon Mr. Smiths surrounding the "good guys" who really think that everything is lost.� Neo is captured by Mirovingian and there's just no hope. But, surprise surprise, Neo actually shows up. - Niobe sees him first and says "Neo" (it's on the trailer) - and shortly after Morpheus sees him to (thinking that everything might not be lost after all) saying "He fights for us".

Joona

Wed, 28 May 2003 03:45:43 -0500

In the "Architect scene" when he is talking about the human beings (not so perfect human beings), in the screens you can see George Bush, Ariel Sharon, Adolf Hitler and Benito Mussolini. I think it`s a clear statement against for example USA`s Mid-East policies. I think it`s quite strange (and of course positive) that in a mass production movie you can find things like this. Comments are accepted..

DaDane

Wed, 28 May 2003 03:12:42 -0500

I think that lugo has "proven" very well that Zion can not be the real world. There can be no supernatural things in the real world (sensing, controling Sentinels etc). I can see that a lot of you think otherwise - can't you please tell why? 1) What's wrong with lugo's prove og 2) What's more importent (i.e. you can't prove lugo wrong, but you have another prove for something else - something that isn't compatible with lugo's idea).

TruthBeTold

Wed, 28 May 2003 02:47:54 -0500

and DADANE was the ONLY other person I saw who noticed the oddity of "He fights for us" I was beginning to worry about people :-D

TruthBeTold

Wed, 28 May 2003 02:36:41 -0500

Neo is a program implemented into a human body...he was born, he was raised, he went to HS, to college, lost his virginity, all the time feeling as if he were living a dream. He is human with the matrix's programming coursing through his cyborg brain. When he is freed his preprogramming takes full effect allowing him to do those uncanny feats in the Matrix. After the ordeal he goes through in "Reloaded" and the helluva conversation with the Architect his mind is in disarray and now with his decision to chose the door to save Trinity he has thusly set forth events that have never been set forth by his 5 predecessors...if what the Architect said was true then what happens now is a series of events never before experienced by both the humans and the programmed entities. And about Neo stopping the Sentinels...being that he seems to have shorted them out and not miraculously stop them in midair I do not believe he is in some aptly named "Matrix B". He is just becoming more aware of his programming and can now sense it in Matrix based entities outside the Matrix itself (the sentinels). Thats what I believe...ALSO judging from the third movies teaser, I believe it will be known by all that Neo is indeed a program. That is why when he is shown fighting Agent Smith [who must've upgraded himself because it seems there is no burly brawl 2, just a one on one DBZ type urban brawl] Morpheus says shocked, "He fights for us." as if such a feat were now strange...I mean Neo always fought for "us" why so amazing now...and also I really hope there is no Matrix B cause even the the idea is interesting...its not really fulfilling. I mean after all this to find out hes immersed in some green liquid filled Egg in the Real Real world. The Matrix was the Birth, Reloaded the Life, and Revolutions is the Death...(not an original idea) What we need answered though is: These movies represent the lifecycle for what? Speculate Please :-D

`lugo

Wed, 28 May 2003 02:09:40 -0500

Like i said before, the fact that he was dead in both worlds for quite some time and the he wills himself to life poses the question where was his mind if it was still thinking? This, in my opinion is just another reason to believe his body was alive somewhere else, ie. a real world outside the Zion Matrix. The second film went to quite some length to show that supernatural things are a part of the Matrix especially with the vampires and wraiths element, so if the story suddenly says that supernatural things occur in the real world too would be pretty poorly thought out to say the least.

Chuck

Wed, 28 May 2003 01:43:52 -0500

'lugo: There is a problem with your theory about there not being any super natural things going on in the real world. Think about the frist movie, neo died, plain and simple. His heart was stopped, he was flatline for about 60 seconds. Then when trinity kissed him (not cpr or any other lifesaving methods) his heart started again. This sounds pretty super natural to me. Now I know you are thinking he willed himself to not die in the matrix, but for those sixty seconds he was dead in both the real world and the matrix, so riddle me this: how can you mind be willing you not to die when you are dead? Even though neo is the one, that fact (in your theory) is supposed to only have effects in the matrix, not the real world where no supernatural events take place. He was dead in both places and then he came back to life in both, supernatural in both.

Kelly

Tue, 27 May 2003 23:38:02 -0500

I believe there are two Matrix's. Matrix A, and Matrix B, as DaDane said.... The Matrix could possibly be based on Baudrillard's theories. For example, Neo picks up his book entitled "Simulacra and Simulation" in the first movie, so there is a direct reference to the text there. A Simulacrum is a copy of a copy. Essentially the Matrix is a simulacrum, meaning the Matrix is a copy of the real world (also a copy). So there in fact is the most logical explanation of why there could be two Matrix's.

random person

Tue, 27 May 2003 23:28:31 -0500

Paul: yea, maybe not the best way to do it, but there is a lot more to the overall story than Neo. I have a feeling the third movie (after defining Neo better) will be more based on other stories (viz. Zion.) A couple of theories I was playing around with, which after reading the synopsis for part III I really doubt would happen... would be things like: Neo did not stop the sentinals. Although Neo put his hand up a-la-bulletstopping, and the sentinals fell, doesn't necessarily mean he stopped them. The other ship (the Hammer I believe) was nearby before they appeared to us. The Hammer could have used an EMP, stopping the sentinals at luckily the same time. They did if you notice die the same way, with the same lights as when they were hit by an EMP. ...now a lot of people would be quick to say, "BUT HE FELT IT!!" or "BUT HE COLLAPSED AT THE END!!" ...well, this too can be explained. We saw how the EMP affected Bane (the guy Smith infected that is on the "real world" side; guy laying down next to Neo at the end).. he's in a coma. Well, the same thing could have happened to Neo as well. In Matrix 1 when Neo jumped into Agent Smith, as Smith says "I don't know, maybe something was overwritten" but obviously some code got mixed. This explains why the sentinals went down, Neo went down, Bane went down, and why Neo felt the electromagnetic pulse coming. Sure, why not.

Just reading...

Tue, 27 May 2003 19:15:15 -0500

Many great comments here. But for those who are more interesting in the religious references, I found the following site to be a great read. It very clearly explains many of the references in the movie. Enjoy! http://www.corporatemofo.com/stories/051803matrix.htm

Kallisto

Tue, 27 May 2003 19:13:22 -0500

~I have a dreamed a dream~ Nebuchadnezzar's Dream Daniel 2:3 And the king said unto them, I have dreamed a dream, and my spirit was troubled to know [what] the dream [means].

Ryan

Tue, 27 May 2003 18:35:49 -0500

Okay, calm down there skippy. I too am a big fan of the Matrix. I am very interested in the things you talk about, but sometimes it gets rather repetitive. What's the crimes in trying to spice things up? In case you didn't notice, I am a satirical writer, however, not once did I ever aim an attack at a specific person. Although, some people do. Now who could that be? Most people would just laugh at the things I say becuase they are meant to be funny, and nothing more. But, I figure they won't becuase they are going to be too busy laughing at how horribly upset you got about it. I'm sure everyone one else will agree with me when I say, "LIGHTEN UP DUDE!" By getting upset, you are only proving my theory, that I never meant to be proven anyway. (Oh yeah, and I'm a blackbelt in Tae-Kwon-Do, so I can go Korean on your ass!)

DaDane

Tue, 27 May 2003 18:33:35 -0500

Lugo (and other): I think that I have an idea for an ending which I can live with. First the machines created the Matrix - but it didn't work out perfectly, because someone didn't accept it. They escaped the Matrix and made Zion in the real world. The maschines found out and they much more than likely have destroyed Zion. This might have happend more than once (depending on how smart the maschines was. The first time they saw people escaping and creating a new place they might just have eliminated them, the second time they probably though that they had to do something more permanent to the problem). At some time the maschines (The Oracle) found out that it was rather inefficient loosing all these "batteries" and also wasting energy of destroying them (because they might be a threat otherwise). So they made a second version of the Matrix which made people believe (perhaps even unconcious) that they had a choise. So most accepted the matrix as it was - and the remaining one percent rejected it for just another dreamworld - the Zion simulation. This all happens in THE SAME matrix (revision 2). They go NOWHERE - and they never gets unplugged. But now Neo actually "awakes himself" from Zion. This might actually be the very first time that happens. We haven't heard of anyone just getting unconsious or even "die" for no apparent reason in Zion, which we probably would have if it was somewhat normal that people left Zion for the real world. That makes it ONE matrix - but two different DREAM WORLDS. But no more than two! Now we only need one thing. Mr. Smith! He certainly is strange - and it definitely seems like he it a threat to humanity. How come. Probably because he is killing minds. He takes over a lot of bodies - threatening to destroy humanity and perhaps even the machine's world as well (he might destroy the Matrix - and thereby their powersupply). So it is of the uttermost importance that Neo stops him - and probably the maschines will even help him. But let's see about that in "revolutions". Please comment!

Ryan

Tue, 27 May 2003 18:14:07 -0500

I am a prick

...

Tue, 27 May 2003 18:11:02 -0500

Ryan, why are you on here? Dont you have any of your own things to do rather than just insulting people who like to be interlectually challenged and to discuss/hypothesise with other people? I suspect that it is you who is without a life; coming onto a forum simply to post pathetic and petty insults, shloudn't you have something better to do? Also you argue that posts are made at early/unsociable hours. Does that not suggest that they are doing other things in the daytime? I should also point out that not everyone is from the same country and that there are time zones!! You did know that, didn't you? Or is it that you are so dumb (is that PC? I should say interlectually challenged) that you simply over look all possible explanations and blurt out whatever it is you are thinking? How about you try something slightly challenging and attempt to answer something rather than just asking questions and unsuccessfully attempting to abuse other people. i might point out that although we have no certain answers, there is still one film to be released and therefore your oh-so deep and hurtful jibe about unanswered questions may yet to be proven to be totally irrelevent. So why dont you do us all a favour and (in my home town's terms) Do one!!! I thank you.

Ryan

Tue, 27 May 2003 17:42:20 -0500

To Jusu, Okay, a brilliantly formulated answer. Yet, you fail to realize that I said I have one question, when in fact, I asked three. Anyway, back to my original point, you say humans are "grown", however, we are not plants. In the real world (as demonstrated in the uneccissary permiscious sex scene) mating is much like that of the Matrix. Therefore, there has to be a gamete joining to form a zygote somehow. Is all pregnancy artificial insemination in a machine-made womb? Is my rather frank talk making all the nerds out there nervious? (P.S. Look at the times you people posted these things! How early do you have to get up just to debate a movie? Do you have jobs? Girlfriends? Lives?)

Paul

Tue, 27 May 2003 17:31:48 -0500

What about the thing that Morpheus says when the Nebuchadnezzar was destroyed by the bomb, he said somethings like: "I deamed a dream, now that dream is gone..." That's what I remember he said, correct me if I'm wrong. The thing is: why Morpheus says this ??

DaDane

Tue, 27 May 2003 16:05:51 -0500

random person: I guess we agree - the matrix in matrix theory is "ugly" - but Neo being a superhuman person in the real world - its even worse. Unless of course they take the Mesias thing very seriously. But that wouldn't be the ending that we all long for either, would it?

DaDane

Tue, 27 May 2003 16:01:20 -0500

I think that you have some pretty hard evidence lugo. Let's in the following assume that Zion is the real world (i.e. not another Matrix). There is no reasonably way that Neo can comunicate with Smith when not connected to the Matrix. Nor is there a reasonably way that he (by force) can stop those sentinels - even if he uses all his powers. So what is happending? The sentinels ran out of battery (by luck just there) The sentinels like Neo to much and do what he asks Well those explanations are by far worse than the matrix in the matrix, - so that's definately not helping us at all. I guess there is just one possiblity left - that the ship actually did it - but even that seems far out. I guess we can say we have reached a contradiction - so our assumption (Zion is the real world) is false. But I still don't like it!

random person

Tue, 27 May 2003 15:59:18 -0500

I don't think there are nested matrices. Seems too easy and too obvious for this film. I came up with a bunch of theories that managed to work in this situation, but reading the synopsis of the third movie kind of makes it easy to draw a conclusion. "Now displaying a greater confidence in his own power, Neo fully realizes that he is a superhuman figure capable of amazing feats, and totally aware that he's able to see the codes of people and things with which he comes into contact." - "The Matrix: Revolutions" movie synopsis If Neo is a superhuman, he can have powers outside of the matrix (although possibly not the same powers as inside the matrix.) This answers any question about stopping the sentinals. I'm looking forward to see the third movie in November.

DaDane

Tue, 27 May 2003 15:53:47 -0500

Yes it is truely an amazin universe 1) They have thought about the things. It a universe with is different and seems very consistent (have to see the last movie to judge, but it seems like that) 2) They have maneged to put in tons of references 3) They really seems to know something about all of the aspects. The things which has to do with computers are very nice and consistent with reality. I'm not an expert, but it seems to be the case for philosophy as well. 4) They have managed to tell a lot and still not reveal everything - they truely are good storytellers. I guess that we all (here) agree that it's a movie in a different leauge than just about every other movie you see. (Not everybody thinks that - but those who don't probably don't spend a lot of time here).

`lugo

Tue, 27 May 2003 14:05:40 -0500

Ok, could someone who believes that Zion is indeed in the real world please explain how they believe Neo is able to communicate with machines. Please, nothing along the lines of "he is linked with Smith", i mean HOW. What is going on physically, chemically etc... in his body that would allow him to transmit signals to machines. This first movie established to some extent that there are no paranormal happenings outside the Matrix, so until someone presents some explaination that i missed, i just can't accept this theory as valid. Also DaDane: Thanks for quoting Smith, i never noticed before how he said: "... like you. APPARENTLY free". Also i feel it is logical to assume that that if the Zion world is another Matrix then it would be based on a real real world, because there would be no point in creating a world that explained why you had been trapped in a Matrix when there was already such a good explanation at hand (assuming that the Matrix really is for generating power for the machines).

Homer

Tue, 27 May 2003 10:01:40 -0500

As a side note I�m astounded at what the Wachowski Brothers have done. I've been thinking about the film a lot, and trying to understand it and reading all the comments on this bored and talking to friends about it. I mean this is a main-stream blockbuster movie that is doing this to me! What Jeff and Melissa were saying is very true about the story being so intricate and finely-tuned. You can tell that they have put a lot of energy into making the story as surprising, un-predictable and thought provoking as possible. And the script is so cleverly written especially the scene with the architect. I respect anyone that can us the words affirmation contingent and predication in one sentence!!

DaDane

Tue, 27 May 2003 08:15:36 -0500

Reasons to believe there is exactly one matrix: * Hard to argue that you have found the last one. The audience will almost certainly think "wonder if they are living in just another matrix and not in the real world after all" * In the Animatrix (2nd renaissance) it seems rather obvious that the sky did in fact get scortch by the humans - and that the machines did actually make the matrix. So it seems that the Matrix is the first one which is built. It does not exclude the possibility that others are built later, - but it probably do rule out the posibility for an infinite number of matrix's inside each other. It is possible that Zion is another Matrix, but then they did somehow build that matrix outside the real matrix and not inside it. That seems really strange. Reasons to believe there is more than one matrix: * It seems Neo has special abilities (stopping the sentinels in open air) * Neo seems to be able to sense things in "the real world" - the bomb, the sentinels etc. * How does the Oracle know what Neo is dreaming in "the real world" Please help me stack up the arguments for and against multiple matrix's

DaDane

Tue, 27 May 2003 06:37:18 -0500

Well - how do you cure a virus? You can terminate it - but that seems not to work, because he don't "die" even when he know he should. "You destroyed me, Mr. Anderson. Afterwards, I was aware of the rules. I knew what I was supposed to do, but I didn't. I was compelled to stay- compelled to disobey. And right now, here I stand because of you, Mr. Anderson. Because of you, I'm no longer an Agent of this system. Because of you, I'm unplugged. A new man, sort of speak- like you. Apparently free." Another way of "curing" is to isolate it. It would be pretty cowardish, but he might actually just be held "prisoner" in a special room that he can't escape (probably such rooms will be located at the corridor).

Torc

Tue, 27 May 2003 05:49:40 -0500

If we see Neo killiing agents at 'lightspeed' (light speed is 886,000 miles per second by the way) we wouldn't even be able to see him. It will end in 0.163 seconds (3 s.f)

Kelly

Tue, 27 May 2003 05:43:24 -0500

Hmm, you could be right. I saw the trailer at the end of the movie but it didn't reveal much. If Neo does kill Smith in a matter of seconds I will be so disappointed. We'll have seen the whole trilogy by then, and to end the final battle with a 10 second fight would be fatal. I'm sure that a lot of people will be disappointed.

DaDane

Tue, 27 May 2003 05:17:07 -0500

Kelly Perhaps so - perhaps not. If I have understood the trailers right Neo will have to terminate/kill Mr. Smith (all of them I suppose) in a somewhat short timeframe. We have seen him him Agent Smith once - and then he even resurrected him self, so Neo must find a much more efficient way of destroying Agent Smith. That might be flying into him at the speed of light - but honestly I don't think so. It looks like Agent Smith will be able to do similar stuff in Revolutions (from the trailer).

Kelly

Tue, 27 May 2003 04:55:45 -0500

Motormetalmaniac: I don't know if you're serious or not, but I think we're just meant to accept the fact that Neo can't kill Agents with the speed of light. If Neo WAS able to beat them at lightning speed, there would be 10 second fights, thus making the movie considerably boring to the majority. If the movie was consistent in every element, it wouldn't be as popular.

ipaidattention

Tue, 27 May 2003 03:37:05 -0500

about neo being able to stop the machines at the end of the movie: neo and agent smith had some sort of interaction at the end of the first matrix, when neo goes inside of him and kills him. smith even mentions that in reloaded. when this happened, part of agent smith was somehow added to neo, thereby putting neo in touch with the computer mainframe for which smith was working. this computer mainframe also controls the sentinels, which is why neo could sense them and was able to stop them.

Motormetalmaniac

Tue, 27 May 2003 03:28:43 -0500

If Neo can fly at hundreds, if not thousands, of miles per hour as confirmed by his rescue of Trinity, then why does he always waste so much time sparring with agents and rogues in a mechanical/acrobatic style? After all, he could use sheer velocity of movement to utterly dismember or outright disintegrate his opponents? Answer: kung fu fighting is the theme of the day in modern action cinema so verisimilitude be damned.

Jusu

Tue, 27 May 2003 02:03:15 -0500

My apologies for the numerous spelling errors. I'm just tired and wrote quite fast w/out re-reading.

Jusu

Tue, 27 May 2003 01:58:32 -0500

To Ryan: Hum, well. As you said, it is only a state of mind. Why? Because as said in the 1st movie, humans are not born, but grown. Pregnancy is then just a "lie" told by the matrix, and the new kid that is just born is then another entity plugged into the matrix as soon as he comes to "life" inside the matrix. But that's a point we shouldn't maybe put too much attention on, I guess there are many other questions like this one that could be formulated. However, I wanted to argue about the my opinion that is that there is no "matrix-in-a-matrix" thing. Here's my point. Well, we've argued about the fact how Neo could control the sentinels in the real world. I guess if we admit that a part of Smith was "copied" into Neo, then he could "easily" stop the sentinels. My explanation: I just re-saw the first movie, and Smith DOES really have a control on the sentinels in the real world since he can "order the strike", as the other agents seem to tell. Another thinng that came to me was the fact that all the programs they are uploaded with DO remain in the real world. (someone told that that could not be possible, i believe it is) Why? Well it's really simple. In the 1st movie we hear clearly that all "newbies" get some kind of "operating programs" uploaded. These program designed to be able to us all the machines inside the ship. Well, we see Neo, just before he re-enters the matrix, load up his own chair and load some other stuff up. Whatever. So this has made me believe that they really can use all they have learned during the training. I believe that Neo could be a teriffic Kung-Fu fighter in the real world, BUT that of course he would not be able to fly or jump really high, since he cannot bend or break the physical rules of the real world. I explain this because I believe Smith did in fact enter the mind of Bane, similarely to a uploaded software, as the Kung-Fu fighting program. Thus, no "matrix-in-a-matrix" thing. Only my opinion. I'm far from pretending to have the right answer. PS: I was probably wrong about the 101 thing. Or maybe it's another idea. But the Room 101 thing explained before is the most commonly accepted and logical answer to "why" this number. I'm having a good time reading all of your theories; keep up the good work and please tell me if I'm in anyway "wrong" in what I said just before.

Ryan

Mon, 26 May 2003 23:37:23 -0500

Okay, so, it's certain that there are a million and one different theories about the whole stopping setinals in midair. It could have been a coincidential fire from a ship that cuaght Neo in the crossfire. It could be a Matrix in a Matrix. It could be his powers now translate into the real world. But, I have one question for the world of Dungions and Dragons players and Trekies out there who really get upset over this kinda stuff: How do humans reproduce in the real world when they are plugged into those jelly-filled egg things? How do two people mate in the Matrix and have a real kid in the real world? Is pregnancy just a state of mind? Oh no, I think I just created a monster.

`lugo

Mon, 26 May 2003 19:42:36 -0500

Jeff and Melissa: The fundemental flaw in the argument that Neo can control sentinels because he is in some way linked with Smith is this: If you asume that Zion is the real world, and the link was made within the Matrix (first film) then logically the only effects of this could be that part of Smith's program was overwritten and so was part of Neo's mind. But no more than his mind because that is all that is connected to the Matrix. Nothing could have happened to him physically. Notice how when people fell pain in the Matrix and the transfer it to their real bodies they never get more than a bleeding nose or jaw, things that are common and can be caused by stress, pressure and such. When someone gets shot, their real bodies don't gain any bullet holes. So if no physical transformation occured then nothing happened that would allow him to transmit messages in any form to machines. Similarly Smith who completely replaced Bane's mind as a human body would have no way to communicate with machines, but i assume he does since the attacking sentinels allow him to survive. The only plausible explaination for this is that both Neo's and Smith's minds are still physically electronically connected to the Machines. Jusu: Nice attention to detail :D but Kelly hit the nail on the head. The Wachowski brothers did say in some interview that the 101 motive is based on Orwell's "1984", which is why it appears in so many ways which you pointed out. Jeff and Melissa again: I guess you missed some things i said in my posts because i did discuss both the programers access corridor and the council = 23 theory. Just so you don't have to look for it: Morpheus says in his cavern speech that they have fought the machines for 100 years. The Councelor tells Neo that he slept for the first 11 years of his life, which means he was 11 when they freed him from the Matrix, too young to be selected as on of 23 to build a city, and he doesn't look to be 111 years old. The corridors are a different level of the Matrix, kind of like Matrix = program, corridor = operating system. It is clear that it is a different level because it survives each of the 6 Matrix restarts. Proof of this is that programs from older versions of the Matrix escaped here and survived the reboot. This also leads me to believe that Zion could be on another level Matrix since we know that there are a least two levels (Matrix, and corridor). Finaly, would Neo see code in the the Zion world? No. He spent most of his life in the Matrix without seeing code, and only when he awoke, was trained and then learned more by himself did he start seeing code. To see code in Zion he would have to 'learn' the news Zion code. And just for the record i believe that Zion is the last level of the Matrix. Despite the fact that they could go on indefinitely, more than two would not tie in with the Gnostic view that seems to have influenced the film so much.

Kelly

Mon, 26 May 2003 17:30:27 -0500

I've always seen Room 101 as the same room in George Orwell's "1984". Room 101 was a torture room where people went into it believing it was something else. They became trapped in this room, like Neo was trapped in the Matrix. It was where people went in believing that 2 + 2 = 4, and ended up believing that 2 + 2 = 5.

DaDane

Mon, 26 May 2003 17:00:22 -0500

It the trailer (the one from the games atleast) your hear Morpheus say "He fights for us" with surprise in his voice. It really puzzles me - I mean - why is he suprised that Neo fight for them - he always did, - didn't he? Also - I really really dislike the Matrix in the Matrix idea (since it will really complicate things - how do you know for sure when you are in the real real world???) - But I guess that Mr. Smiths "Welcome back, we missed you" might suggest that he has been "away". Of course it could just be from the matrix (i.e. he was in the real world (Zion) - but I guess there's more to it than that).

DaDane

Mon, 26 May 2003 16:47:45 -0500

Macca: Thanx Jusu: I'm studying computerscience - and the normal way to count for a computer (or for computerscientist anyway) is beginning with 0, so 101 is indeed the 6'th version.

Macca

Mon, 26 May 2003 16:42:07 -0500

Jusu, that 101 thing is cool! I'd noticed it had popped up a couple of times in the first film but hadn't made the connection in Reloaded (as I've only seen it once.) I thought it was just supposed to be a comment on Neo being the one. I think you're spot on with the #6 in binary and Neo being the 6th "one". Could you inform the board if you remember any more 101 references. P.S. DaDane, Cataclysmic comes from cataclysm which is an incredibly violent destruction of something. e.g. The cataclysm of Atlantis, the mythical continent destroyed in a few days by natural disasters. However it occasionally means a violent *change*, not destruction. Have we stumbled onto another of those prohecies here?

Macca

Mon, 26 May 2003 16:34:26 -0500

I watched the original film again today and noticed a few things. No doubt you guys have all spotted how often innocuous statements made by characters are filled with more meaning and often prophetic. e.g. The guy at Neo's door: "My own personal Jesus Christ", Smith (when talking about Neo's two aliases): "One of these lives has a future, the other does not". I couldn't help but notice the conversation between Morpheus and Tank during Neo's training. Morpheus: "Is he OK?" Tank: "Ten hours straight - he's a machine." Also, there is an occasion in each film where an agent refers to Neo as "only human". Whether you think these two seemingly innocuous remarks go against each other or otherwise. (The "only human" remarks have more attention drawn to them, perhaps designed for the Agents to have a "oh my god he's more than human after all" storyline later.) As for the argument against the matrix-within-a-matrix theory about the code seeing thing, at no point is Neo literally supposed to see everything made up of code! If he did see the code when he was in the matrix it wouldn't make up 3D objects. It's just supposed to show that Neo's sees the Matrix for what it is and can hence visualise it as merely code and therefore change it around him.

Jusu

Mon, 26 May 2003 14:59:14 -0500

Jeff and Melissa, I totally agree with you on every point... One other thing. Another thing that hasn't been discussed is the meaning of the number 101. You can notice it all through both episodes: both beginning and end rooms in Matrix (#1), the floor level of the restaurant in Reloaded, the highway (it's the highway 101), and many more that i don't remember right now. (I would even say the the trio represents this number: have you noticed how they walk always in the same way in Reloaded? Trinity - Morpheus - Neo : White-Black-White : 101... Could be a coincidense but whatever :p So... back to the meaning of this number... Well, in binary counting, it means 5, however, the number 101 is the 6th binary number if we start a 0 (0,1,10,11,100,101): you got my point, it is the 6th version of the matrix. It's just an idea... If someone has a better theory about the meaning of this number, please.

DaDane

Mon, 26 May 2003 14:41:49 -0500

My english could have been better - what does Cataclysmic mean?

DaDane

Mon, 26 May 2003 14:32:39 -0500

Jeff & Melissa They don't originate from the 23 - they originate from the 23 and those they get from the Matrix.

Jeff and Melissa

Mon, 26 May 2003 13:07:54 -0500

Also, who are the 23 from the previous version of the Matrix? The ONLY human characters above the age of 40 or so were on the council in Zion. I know there are only 12 of them, but maybe they are the remnants of the last Matrix. I doubt it, personally, because I assume they would have to be long dead by now (see next paragraph). What doesn't make any sense at all is how Zion can have so many people. It would take many many generations for that many people to originate from 23, which leads us to two possible scenarios: either Zion has never been destroyed at all, or it is WAY, WAY, WAY past the year 2199, which is what Morpheus believes it to be. Jeff and Melissa

Jeff and Melissa

Mon, 26 May 2003 12:54:18 -0500

Alright--We're gonna try to tie as much together as possible in a way that makes logical sense to us, being as little farfetched as possible. First, Zion. We agree with one or two previous posts (A Guy From St. Louis, I believe), in that the existence of Zion is perpetuated by the machines for a reason which is consistent with their needs and purposes. The purpose of Zion is to have a place for humans to function, and perform two tasks that the machines are not able to do themselves--find and recruit all the other members of that 1% of the population which does not accept the Matrix as reality, and to locate the One from those people. Once enough rebels have been located, the machines exercise their control over both the humans and their situation by "resetting" Zion. That is to say, eliminating all the human rebels of the current generation. The purpose of the chosen 23 people is to begin the locating of all the rebels and dissenters of the next era of the Matrix. In other words, by isolating the free minds and concentrating them together, Zion helps the machines, by allowing them to keep the humans in check by simply destroying Zion. To address the question of why the machines don't simply destroy all of Zion and not leave the 23 chosen people to repopulate it, we refer to the Architect's speech. He explains how the imperfection in humans is so innate and intrinsic that it is a part of the very mathematical equation underlying this world. In other words, the rebel humans cannot be avoided or prevented. That imperfection will ALWAYS exist, and therefore the machines must find a way of finding, concentrating, and controlling them (Zion). As the Architect implies, as long as the humans feel that Zion is their creation and that it is their actions which sustain its existence, they will have no reason to rebel against that system. Because they have choices, humans feel as though they "chose" to enter Zion, rather than that they entered it through some kind of filtration system. Second, the Oracle. The Oracle is the "mother" of the Matrix, not Persephone. While it is the Architect's "job" to control and oversee the Matrix, it is the Oracle's job to find, through her "intuitive" programming and investigations "into the human psyche," those minds which can be freed and entered into Zion. When the Architect scoffs "Please" in response to Neo referring to the Oracle as the mother of the Matrix, he is scoffing at the title "Oracle", because she is not an Oracle, not because she is not the mother of the Matrix. An oracle's function is to "see" the future. This is not what the Oracle does; she merely predicts the actions of humans based on her intuitive nature. Hence, the Architect scoffs when Neo calls her the Oracle, a title no doubt given to her by humans. Third, Agent Smith. There is only one scenario that makes any kind of logical sense to us. Agent Smith has become a virus. This not only explains his rapid infestation of other bodies, but also explains both the "cataclysmic system crash" referred to by the Architect, and Neo's connection with Agent Smith that allows him to destroy the sentinel at the end of Reloaded (because machines can control other machines). In addition to simply appearing to be a virus and act like a virus (replicating with no discernable goal in mind other than to multiply), there are storyline references which imply that Smith is a virus as well. In the first movie, Smith discusses how the human race behaves like a virus. Since he, an agent, was against the human race virus, he referred to himself as "the cure." In Reloaded, during the scene where Neo fights all the Smiths, Smith encounters a different agent on the side of all the fighting. They exchange some bitter words, and Smith proceeds to destroy the other agent by replicating himself once again. This shows that Smith is now against the agents as well, and since they are "the cure," Smith must now be "the virus." At the end of Reloaded, when Neo is given a choice of doors in the Architect's room, he chooses his "left" door which is supposed to lead back to the Matrix, and to a "cataclysmic system crash which will lead to the destruction of all humans in the Matrix." Only part of this immediately happens. The door does return Neo to the Matrix, but there is no evidence of a "system crash." This system crash is taking the form of the replication and infestation of the Agent Smiths. A computer program, the Matrix, is being overrun by a virus, Agent Smith, which is leading to the destruction of all humans in the Matrix. It is fairly obvious that Neo and Agent Smith share some kind of connection. They each kill each other and come back to life in a new state of being. They are referred to as "similar," at least by Agent Smith. We are not necessarily proposing that Neo is a "machine," but Neo definitely has some kind of connection to Agent Smith, a machine, which allows Neo to control machines in the same way. This explains Neo's destruction of the sentinel at the end of Reloaded. Either he is a machine, or he simply can control machines through his link with Smith. No Matrix within a Matrix. No magic. We refuse to accept the Matrix in a Matrix theory for several reasons. First, wouldn't Neo have to see the "real world" Matrix in code the same way he sees the other Matrix in code? Second, if this were the case, this new twist would horrendously massacre the plot and would eliminate all the credibility and respectability that the filmmakers have gained through the making of the first two films. It would be so lame, and so irritatingly cliche. As of right now, at the conclusion of Reloaded, the directors are on the brink of what may be the most intricate and most finely-tuned creation of storytelling. I hope that they stay true to their style and keep the real world what it is. Just a final thought: No one has been discussing the portals and those hallways filled with doors that lead to places outside the Matrix. Are these doors a new dimension? A new world? Other programs like the Matrix? Simply glitches? Or are they pathways put there by the Architect or other programmers? It's such an interesting aspect of the film, which hasn't gotten enough discussion. Jeff and Melissa

`lugo

Mon, 26 May 2003 12:07:26 -0500

yep, i think he realized he was in another level matrix and stopped the sentinels, but since he had not trained the required skills it was a physical and mental exertion that pulled him out into a real-real world, while his body dropped to the ground and appeared to be in a coma, much like the man in the Animatrix episode "World Record".

freddy

Mon, 26 May 2003 11:27:55 -0500

lugo, reading one of your earlier posts, am i right in saying that you think that when Neo in the "real world matrix" stopped those sentinals, he, like the man in world record, awoke from the "real world matrix" and is now in the real real world due to the physical over-exuberance? That would explain the "coma" he is in. is this right or have i totaly missed your point. i think there are only 2 matrices. infinate matrices or even more than 2 would make revolutions a bit repetitive(right word?) if they kept realising they were in another matrix.

`lugo

Mon, 26 May 2003 09:16:37 -0500

I just watched it again today after reading all this and writing my own views and so I've a few adjustments to make: 1. Zion life-span: I missed this first time around. In morpheus' speech in the cavern he states "we have fought the machines for one hundred years ..." The councelor says: "I slept for the first eleven years of my life" which means he was freed from the matrix at the age of eleven. So he neither looks to be 111 years old, nor is 11 a good age for someone chosen to rebuild Zion, which shows that the council aren't the original 23. Which is a shame because it was a nice idea. 2. Oracle: -All is in Vain- asked about her enemies, and i noticed some references to it in the film. The Merovingian say "tell the witch her time is almost up". In the game the Oracle (played by the new actress) explains what happened to her, that two programs she trusted sold the termination code of her former shell to the Merovengian. She also says she let them do it because their child would be important later ... hmmm. Also in the movie the Oracle says that her time with Neo is up and leaves just before Smith appears. This is quite a solid argument for the postulate that the Oracle is indeed on the humans' side. The Merovingian desires power, and has survived several Matrix reboots (He says to Neo: "I survived your predecessors and i will survive you") so his appempt to kill the Oracle could mean he is afraid that with her help he will succeed in destroying the system. 3. Smith: I noticed in the revolutions trailer something that suggests Neo will have to destroy Smith to save humanity. Someone says "you have to destroy it before tonight" while scenes of Smith are showing, and the on the street in the rain scene he says to Smith: "It ends tonight". Also Smith is very much aware now of the whole of the Matrix and it's history. At the begining of the movie he says to himself [ :) ] "That went as expected" "Yes, thing are going exactly as before" "Well, not exactly" 4. Matrix in Matrix: More interesting things releted to this. a) When the Neb lands and the kid (Neo's #1 fan) runs up, Trinity says "How does he always know". It seems that he can sense Neo in the realworld like neo begins to sense things. This is interesting because as i've already written this is the kid in the Animatrix who awoke himself, died in the Matrix but kept living in the real world. No one knows how. The only other person to survive death by force of will alone is Neo. b) When Smith (as Bane) attempts to assassinate Neo, he wishes him good luck and then says "We'll see you". This is just before Neo visits the Oracle and the Smith fight scene. Does this mean that Bane is able to comunicate with the Smiths in the Matrix? Yes! Since he also is the only survivor of the failed counter attack. The sentinels left him on purpose. Like Neo's control over the sentinels this could not be possible if both worlds were not electronically linked, since the human body does not generate any signals that could be intercepted at a distance by machines and used to communicate.

Johna

Mon, 26 May 2003 09:03:33 -0500

To Jusu : I would like to say something about the idea that Agent Smith "copied" himself into Bane in the same way Neo learned his Kung-Fu. When Tank uploaded Neo the Kung-Fu program, Neo could only use these skills inside the Matrix, not in the supposingly real world, so it should mean that whatever program is uploaded to a human, it could only work inside the Matrix. Thus unless the Zion-world is yet another Matrix, Smith wouldn't have been able to duplicate himself into the mind of a real human. Well....anyway.... just another opinion :)

Jusu

Mon, 26 May 2003 04:50:19 -0500

To Dan: About the spoon thing It is not the same spoon. Why? Because in Matrix (#1) the spoon is perfect, flawless because he can bend the spoon at will w/out any damage. In Reloaded (you might have noticed it), the spoon is all dirty, damaged... My guess is that the boy tried to bend a spoon (whatever spoon) in the real world (I don't like the "matrix in another matrix theory, sorry :)) and did not succeed, hense the damage it has. (if you recall, the boy says in Matrix (#1): "Don't try and bend the spoon, it's impossible"; but still he tried in the real world) That's only my little theory about that. Concerning the "powers" Neo has in the real world, I believe it's what was "copied, overwritten", as Smith says in Reloaded (speaking about when Neo killed Smith; there was an "exchage" of powers between the to; they are mirrors to each other). I think he gained the ability to "sense", like the agents. And that's, to my opinion, why he "feels" the agents at the beginning of Reloaded (+ the symbolic of the ear-thing Smith gives to Neo). Furthermore, it is the 1st time he encounters Sentinels since the 1st movie and thus, similarely to the agents, he can "feel" them, and that's what's "different". Concerning the fact that he stoped the sentinels at the end? Well... I think he just gained the ability to interact with the machine AI's during his "transfer of power" with Smith (following the same idea that he can be uploaded a Kung-Fu program; it makes sense since Smith's program can now infect humans). And he doesn't really stop them as he would with bullets: he just disables them and it demanded so much of him that he fell into a coma. "But fear not", this is only my opinion ;)

Chuck

Mon, 26 May 2003 01:22:27 -0500

'lugo: I too, if you look back in the posts have pondered what you did, about neo and the other one's dying or not dying or losing there powers or not losing there powers after the whole choice in the matrix of the left or right door. I think that the one continues to free minds with the people of Zion, but does not posses any of his "powers" in the matrix that he did before his "code" was re-inserted; so he would continue just as a normal human that could enter the matrix, but with out his special powers; that is my thoughts after looking at all of the evidence. Also I think you may be hinting at this, but I don't know for sure, I too think that if what you are saying about the council being made up of the 23 and the one being among them, then if I had to guess I say that it would be the senator; if any of them. As for your matrix with in a matrix theory, it is a good one and a nicely laid argument. I do, on the other hand disagree with the matrix in a matrix idea though (maybe sometime I could write out my reasons, if I ever had time to list them as neatly as you did) I believe that the oracle is on the humans� side. I am going to do a little philosophy here to prove it, but it will take some explaining of ideas here so bear with me (I have had classes in philosophy, but I am by no means an expert, nor do I claim to be). There is two different ways of thinking in philosophy in regards to the future, the first is determinism and the second is indeterminism (these are the ideas that Morphesus and the Merovingian discuss). For those of you who are not enlightened, determinism is the idea that even though through out a life it seems there are choices and decisions to be made, but there really is no choice and everything is predetermined by its precursor and the precursor by its precursor, etc.; cause and effect (just as the movie says). Indeterminism states the complete opposite; there are different choices to be made and any of them could be made, the catch is that the choice is not decided by previous events. I myself believe in a form of indeterminism where choice is caused by previous experiences. That is a long enough lecture and I must apologize because I have misplaced my text books from that semester so I can't give credit to the authors of the ideas I have sited above (if I find them later I will post them). Anyone who has seen the movies knows these ideas are debated in one part. Take the oracle for example, she is a classic case of determinism. Think, has she stated anything that has not been accurate? If she has the ability to know these things ahead of time, then the movies must believe in this idea of determinism. There is plenty of evidence to support this claim. When Neo sees the Oracle he tries to prove her wrong by not sitting, but fails. As much as I wish Morphesus was right and saying that it is choice, the Merovingian is right in the sense of the movie, it is cause and effect. Neo's fate has already been decided and the Oracle knows it. Take these things as a few other examples of the cause and effect idea. Cause: Neo is told of the keymaster and what he needs to do, Effect: Neo goes gets the keymaster and so on, Cause: Neo is in love with trinity and enters the room with the architect and is told of trinity's problems, Effect: Neo does what we all knew he would do saves the girl. A great example of this idea is the thought that the oracle presents in the first movie, if she hadn't told neo of the vase would he have still broken it? No, is the answer, it was cause and effect. Same with trinity and neo falling in love and then Neo's decision to save her and not take the other door. The point I am trying to make is that this movie (in my honest opinion, but not necessarily the correct one) is based on determinism, or as Morphesus calls it fate. Here it the argument summed up in the shape of a philosophical argument. 1. The future can, and has, be predicted very accurately every time (if you think this is wrong tell when the oracle was wrong about her predictions) 2.If the future can be predicted this accurately every time, then the future has already been written so that it can be predicted (because it is impossible to predict something every time with this may possible outcomes with out being wrong one or twice). 3. If statement 1 and 2 is true then the matrix is based on determinism. Now I know all of you are saying that is fine and dandy but WHAT THE HECK does this have to do with the Oracle being of the Humans side? The answer simply is if she can predict all these out comes and know all of this then she knew that neo would choose not to reboot the matrix, eventually meaning that the machines would lose all of the humans if this happened, so if she on the side of the machines then she would not have helped neo. She helped neo because she knows what will happen in the end already, humans and machines will get along or the humans will win (only daft idiot would end it with them losing and I give the brothers much more credit than that), but this could be wrong, regardless her stasis of being good does not change. I know this is long if you have read it all, thanks I hope if anyone has any thoughts or counter arguments they will state them.

Diego

Sun, 25 May 2003 23:24:44 -0500

I haven't read this page entirely... but i have a comment that may have already been addressed Why Smith is still trying to kill Neo? In the movie, renegade programs are like angels in the bible, they have no free will... smith says so, he is not free because he has a purpose, and without it he would not exists... his original purpose was to kill Neo, thus even if he is "free", he is still trying to complete his purpose becuase without it, he's just useless

DaDane

Sun, 25 May 2003 19:26:47 -0500

Lugo: I really like your post BUT - what will convince the audience that there are only those 2 matrices? The part I don't like about multiple matrices is that it is very hard to make it stop - how do we know that there isn't just one more layer? I guess it might be in the buddism part - since thats where the world within world comes from - or have I misunderstood your post?

lugo

Sun, 25 May 2003 19:25:42 -0500

I really like your post BUT - what will convince the audience that there are only those 2 matrices? The part I don't like about multiple matrices is that it is very hard to make it stop - how do we know that there isn't just one more layer? I guess it might be in the buddism part - since thats where the world within world comes from - or have I misunderstood your post?

RIO

Sun, 25 May 2003 17:41:27 -0500

Mr_Anderson, I must admit that you give a pretty good reference/plot hole with... "I liked that Neo being a machine but wait, huge hole, what about the various readings on the Nebucanezzer (yeah wrongly spelt) the readings of his heart I mean, it's not just a frequency graph, there's an actual image of his heart moving on those screens." But I'm leaning towards what Changster said regarding the idea that Neo is man AND machine. I used the term robot originally, because I didn't want to use the cheesy term "cyborg", but I do think that Neo being a cyborg (organic parts mixed with machine parts) would explain those readings on the hovercraft when they first saved him. Although, it does still leave the question of "wouldn't they have discovered at least some of his machine parts?" Despite this, I hold to my Neo is a machine belief, albeit tenuously, because it would explain SO much. Finally, I must admit that lugo presents a damn compelling argument for the matrix in a matrix theory. this is starting to make me all loopy, I'll be holstering my matrix theory guns now. ;^)

...

Sun, 25 May 2003 16:51:02 -0500

Lugo, wicked post, all seems to make sense and the most in depth analysis on here.

`lugo

Sun, 25 May 2003 16:37:45 -0500

ops, that turned out long O_o

`lugo

Sun, 25 May 2003 16:35:42 -0500

WOW, a lot of food for thought here. But i seem to have noticed that most of the truly enlightening posts were written by people who do not believe in the matrix in matrix theory. I however feel that this is very valid and so i'll try to present my arguments. As RIO pointed out, most people have bypassed completely the Animatrix in their comments. Everyone has omitted the game "Enter the Matrix". Both these titles are unquestionably "matrix core". 4 of the 9 episodes of the Animatrix where directed by the Wachowski's (The Final Flight of the Osiris, Second Renaissance I and II and Kid's Story), as was the story line of the game (which featured some cinematic scenes that did not show in the film). Just to show how closely these are intertwined, an example: - Final Flight of the Osiris shows the ship discovering the sentinel army drilling to Zion, and dropping a data tape into the Matrix before being destroyed. - The game then shows you (as Niobi) going into the Matrix to get the disc. - Then the film starts with Niobi passing on the message. Now my arguments: 1. Restarting the Matrix: The cycle of events would be as follows. Some 'the one' choses to restart to save humanity, all inhabitants of Zion are killed, 'the one' selects 23 individuals from the matrix to create a new Zion. How does this tie in with what we know ? In the first film Morpheus says something to this extent: "A long time ago a man was born within the Matrix who had the ability to shape the world around him, it was he who freed the first of us." So 'the one' selects 23 people, tells them that they are the first to be freed from the Matrix, they build a city and proceed to multiply and free others. I've seen various comments that suggest the Councelor (and probably the whole council) were the 23 people who where freed by the previous 'one'. Apart from them are but a few other older people (those that come and ask Neo to look over their children) which suggests that they WERE the beginning. Why restart the Matrix? Seems simple enough. It has been stated that the matrix is designed upon a time that was the peek of human civilization. As that time ends they must restart it, and start again. How much could they program? I would guess around 30-40 years (the age of most of the people in Zion). Which brings up an interesting point: Since Neo arrived he helped free minds at a rate of "more people in the past six months than in the 6 years before that". That's a lot of free minds, but not a lot of older people. This suggests that the previous 'one' didn't do any more within the Matrix after choosing his 23. We know he died, so does this mean he died just after the incident? If so how? I'm interested in seeing how this will be explained. Especially the possibility that the previous one is still alive (he would be the same age as the council). 2 .The Oracle: "When he died the Oracle prophesied his coming ..." "This is the same Oracle that made the prophecy ?" "Yes, she is very old. She's been with us since the beginning". This makes sense. After a Matrix restart, the 23 contact the Oracle for help. She make's a prophecy that a new 'one' will be born when the current 'one' dies ... so it goes. So she has some control and manipulation over the people. The question is who's side is she on? But first is she the 'mother' of the Matrix? Some suggest that this is in fact Persephone because of the reference to a program made to study the human phyche, and how Persephone seeks a kiss. I believe that in fact it is the Oracle. The Architect says clearly that the 'mother' discovered the need for choice, and it is the Oracle who constantly (even in the first film) makes people conscious of their choices, and his "Please" probably only signals disgust of her new name. She is after all an exile program. Which side? That's the difficult one. But... a) she is an exile, so she has to fight the system to survive. b) everything she has said so far has been spot on. c) her two topics of choice are choices and love. Choices ... obvious, Love? She tells Trinity she will fall in love with the one. She suggests to Neo that Trinity loves him. She says "being the one is a lot like being in love". In the game when you see the Oracle she talks about love. Now why is this important? Because it's because of love that Neo chooses not to go to the source, but to return and save Trinity. It seems to me that the Oracle is very much aware of this, and knows that Neo will make this choice as she has known before, and despite this she makes her prophecy, and tells him to go to the source to make the choice. Although there isn't much to go on, I fell that this suggests that Neo is in fact meant to save humanity from machines, and she is in fact on ... well ... her own side. Probably she see that she has a better chance of survival with humans, either that or like the keymaker, it is what he is meant to do. Anyway, she does say she's a believer ... 3. EMP killed sentinels: A few people have proposed the theory that the sentinels at the end of reloaded where destroyed by the emp of the arriving ship. Others said that this is impossible as the ship would immobilize itself... and so on. The end of the game addresses this issue beyond any doubt. At the end of the game Niobi's ship the Locos is fleeing from a hoard of sentinels and in the end, when they are trapped the wait for all the sentinels to approach and then fire the emp. After is a cut scene showing Niobi and Ghost waiting in the dark cockpit of their ship for someone to find and rescue them. This is also stated earlier in the game where commander Lock is stating his strategy plan to take all the ships at emp distance from each other to make a huge ump radius to take out all the sentinels. It is stated specificly that the ships must stay out of each other's emp range. And in both the game and film the counter attack is said to have failed because one ship fired the emp to early disabling the others (Bane's ship). Furthermore in The Matrix (#1), they cannot fire the emp until Neo is out so they don't kill him which means that the emp affects internal electronics also, but despite that does not put anyone into a coma, so that can't explain what happened to Neo. 4. So what happened? Is the Zion world another Matrix?: I think so. Besides shutting down the sentinels at the end, he shows a lot of extra sensory perception in the real world throughout the film. Sensing approaching sentinels, knowing that there is a bomb, etc. This is coming close to the level of perception he has in the Matrix, ie. sensing the arrival of agents at the beginning of the film. An important clue could be his coma. Apart from the reference that the previous 'one' awoke himself, it is unknown how this would occur, especially since we now know that he didn't awake himself, mearly saying so after restarting the cycle. The Animatrix is helpful in this. Two episodes, "World Record" and "Kid's Story" show people who awake themselves. In "World Record" an athlete awakes through overexertion but is automatically reinserted with his memory erased. Inside the Matrix he falls down unconscious and then goes into a coma. The other, "Kid's Story", which is written by the Wachowskis, is about a boy who escapes the Matrix, kind of (this is the kid that chases Neo all over Zion, his own personal fan club). Despite what he thinks, Neo did not save him. He saved himself. It's a very interesting episode because it starts with his dreams of falling, and at the end he finds himself in that situation, at that moment he believes and allows himself to fall to his death. But despite dying in the Matrix he awakes outside. Trinity calls it selfsubstantiation (somewhat similar to Neo's resurrection in the first film where he dies but his consciousness lives on and by force of will he returns to life). This is very similar to Neo's situation. He has dreams of the future (which the Oracle comments on), and the visions are during his sleep in the real world! While not connected to the Matrix he see's its future. At the end of the film he realises what he is sensing, stops the sentinels and goes into a coma. This i why i feel he awoke from a Zion-Matrix at that moment. Facts recap: a) His powers at the end of the film. b) Coma similar to the effects of self waking in the Animatrix. c) Dreams in the Zion world coincide with occurrences in the Matrix, which couldn't be possible if they weren't connected. The Oracle for example lives inside the Matrix. d) More to come ... read on ... e) Neo dies in the first film both inside the Matrix and out, but somehow returns to life. Where exactly was his mind at that time ? Maybe close to awakening but not close enough. Similarly Trinity in reloaded, although Neo does get her heart beating similarly to how medics would try to revive someone who's heart stopped beating. 5. Smith: When Smith was destroyed by Neo he was meant to return to be deleted, but since he has shown himself to be an individualist he decides to become an exile. Both he and the Oracle elaborate on this. With this he gains access to the programers passage that only the exile programs seem to use in this film (the system can't seem to find them there) and possibly some additional knowledge. What knowledge? Well there are some exile programs that know more about the matrix than agents seem to. Foremost is the Oracle. The Oracle obviously knows where Zion is another level of the Matrix since she is the 'mother', so it is possible that Smith could gain this knowledge. I strongly believe that this is why he tries to exit into the Zion world. But instead he becomes human. This could mean that the Zion world is in fact real. But I doubt that. The main reason is that no other agent has tried to use such a trick to infiltrate the Zion world and destroy it from within. As i reason it, Smith gained knowledge of a second layer Matrix, and how to exit into it when he exiled, but he didn't know enough. The rules of the Zion-world are different and became physically human (his shock is shown by him cutting his hand, he appears to not quite believe what has happened to him). Because of the different rules no one else has shown an ability to exert control over the Zion-world until Neo does at the end. 6. Rogue programs: It was stated that they come from different versions of the matrix. But if the matrix was restarted 5 times then where did they survive? As i've said, it seems that the whole programer maintainance corridor is accessible only to the exile programs, and here they have hidden themselves from the system programs (agents wan to kill the keymaker and the wraith-twins). This suggests that this is a level outside the matrix, but why not reboot the whole thing unless there is something you want to keep. I reason that the machines wanted to keep the Zion-world so they destroy Zion with sentinels instead of rebooting it as well. You could argue that this proves that Zion is the real world, but then there would be absolutely no reason not to reboot the programers corridor and the rogue programs. The game gives yet more info. At one point there is a cut scene where Niobi, about to exit the Matrix, is confronted by an old man with long grey hair (who appears in the revolutions trailer) who says: "72 hours, that's how long Zion lasted last time". So this is another program that survived the system reboot. 7. Zion part 2: More importantly i think they need to keep 'the one' from realizing the truth. The Architect says that 1% of people reject the Matrix, and they are put in Zion, moreover we have 'the one' who is even more of an anomaly. Have you ever thought how Neo is able to do what he does? Before I saw reloaded i had no idea, but now i do. No one else knows how he does what he does, his operator is constantly shocked, and he cannot teach anyone else what he knows. If the Zion-world is the second level Matrix, and the Matrix itself is programed within the Zion world then i figure that what he is doing is manipulating the Zion-world program to effect the rules within the Matrix. This is pretty far fetched but it shows how he seems to sense more and more of what is going on in the Zion-world as he gets more powerful, starting of course with hearing Trinity speak to him at the end of the first film while he was dead in the Matrix and she was outside of it. Lets assume that of the 1% that reject the matrix there is 1% that reject the Zion program too. Such an individual is prone to awaken from the second level despite it's different rules. As the Architect said with regards to Zion, if left unchecked this could pose a threat to the system. So 'the one' is coaxed into rebooting the Matrix and told that Zion will be destroyed to stop 'the one' from finding out the truth. Secondly, the more people on Zion the more chance that a 1% of them will doubt the reality, and i think especially of the people born through natural means in Zion who i assume are those minds that refuse the Matrix program straight from birth and are dropped directly into the Zion-world. The destruction of Zion is a simple way to kill of the 1% that reject the program, while the rest are reinserted after reboot with an erased memory. And so the system has worked so far, until Neo who, guided by love rather than union with his species decides not to reboot, and then after postulating the words of the Architect begins to understand the truth. 8. Religion and the Matrix concluded: The Matrix is a religious feast. From Jesus references: - "Thomas Anderson" : Thomas - the non believer, Andros - (greek) Human, Anderson - Son of Man - "Your my savior, man. My own personal Jesus Christ" - (c) Choi in The Matrix (#1) - Neo's death is foretold by the Oracle. Neo dies, to save humanity then is resurrected and becomes 'the one'. all the way through to Budhism. But above all are the gnostic beliefs (which are similar to Christianity, but from a wider viewpoint, which give a different vision of God and a godly hierarchy, and a different view of the role of Jesus the messiah). In short the gnostic view states that the Demiurge (false god, the god in Judaism and Christianity) created a flawed world, a prison for the divine element in each being. Each individual must through knowledge and understanding awake to a higher level of consciousness to become one with the true God. The gods are set in a hierarchy. First the main God who created existence, and made other gods including Sophia the 'Mother', she in turn made the demiurge, a flawed creation that perceives itself as perfect desired power, rebelled and created the world. In gnosticism Jesus is said to have been such a person who was send by the 'Mother' to help other people transcended to a higher level of consiousness and free themselves from the restrictions of the world. The parallels to the Matrix are obvious. The Oracle, the Mother, guides Neo on his quest. But then what does this mean? The Oracle is the Mother, and the Architect is the Father. His, creating the Matrix which failed repeatedly would put him in the role of the Demiurge, which fits with the arrogance he portrays. But this would mean that the Oracle is on a higher level than the Architect. Possible her becoming an exile may have given her a higher status which is why her prophecies are much more accurate than those of the Architect. And then of course there would be yet another level, the real God. What goes on from here is anyone's guess.

All is in Vain

Sun, 25 May 2003 16:06:00 -0500

Some things to consider: 1) Why does the Oracle have "many enemies" if she is the "Mother" of the Matrix? 2) Why did the agents seek the information from Morpheus in the first film if they have, in fact, already destroyed Zion several times? 3) Why would the architect give Neo a choice at all, if he really wanted Neo to return to the source. He didn't have to tell Neo that Trinity had re-entered the Matrix. In fact, he could have even given Neo the option of including Trinity in the selected female list of those to rebuild Zion. Instead, everything he said manipulated Neo into returning to the Matrix, not into the other option. Is this the Architect's intention, for Neo to return to the Matrix? 4) What did the visit to the Architect accomplish? 5) Why would the agents seek to terminate the Keymaker, if, in fact, the keymaker were essential to the Architect's plan (namely, getting the One to the source so as to recycle the matrix)? 6) The Keymaker, when asked why he is helping the humans, responds with something that strongly suggests that they, humans and machines, are all in it together, all for the same purpose. What does this mean? We must consider such comments in light of Neo's conversation with the Senator on the dock of the engineering level (in which the Senator suggests machines and humans depend on one another).

john

Sun, 25 May 2003 16:05:06 -0500

Ok I have one comment on the parallel-matrix theory: Agent Smith, while keeping Morpheus imprisoned in this building (in part I) he tells Morpheus: AGENT SMITH I hate this place. This zoo. This prison. This reality, whatever you want to call it, I can't stand it any longer. It's the smell, if there is such a thing. I feel saturated by it. I can taste your stink and every time I do, I fear that I've somehow been infected by it. what does agent smith, which is actually just a computer program,mean with saying 'This Reality,what ever you want to call it' ? How can agents live outside the actual matrix? Only if there is a precedent matrix... not sure, just a thought.

Jen

Sun, 25 May 2003 08:42:41 -0500

I was pretty bored by the first half of the movie, so I thought the movie was okay. The fight sequences were cool, and the highway scene was the more amazing one, because you can actually relate to being on a highway. Morpheus bores. The speech he gave at the rally/rave was lame, which leads me to think the smelly hippies (TM Cartman) are pretty stupid too. Anyway, what I thought was most interesting was, given the information that Larry Wachowski (or maybe it's the other brother, who knows) is leaving his wife for a dominatrix, there's a whole new subtext for the films. For example, when Neo revives Trinity, he's not holding her hand, he's holding her latex-gloved hand.

DaDane

Sun, 25 May 2003 08:27:49 -0500

I can't get along with the matrix in the matrix idea - but I've got an idea for how movie 3 might be. It isn't flawless though - I believe that Mr. Smith will have a much bigger role than my idea seemingly gives room for. My Idea is: Neo wakes up - he have found out that they are in fact living in just another matrix. He tells this to those persons around him. Some believe some doesn't - There is a great debate about this. It ends out that a few believes and go to "the real world" - the rest stays in Zion believing that they are in fact living in the real world. Not long after that Neo find out that this "3. real world" isnt real after all - and takes a few guys the a "4. real world". Very shortly after that he finds out that isn't the real world either. He realises that there is in fact infinitly many levels - and break down - but only for a while. The "boy which been spoons" shows up (for real or in his dream) daying "Try not to bend the Matrix 'cause that is impossible. Try instead to realise the truth. There is no Matrix...". He then realises that the first matrix is in fact the real world - but they are hypnotized. He then wakes people up from this dream. I believe in fits rather o.k. with the ending of the first movie as well: (Phone) The One: I know you're out there. I can feel you now. I know that you're afraid. You're afraid of us. You're afraid of change. I don't know the future. I didn't come here to tell you how this is going to end. I came here to tell you how it's going to begin. I'm going to hang up this phone and then I'm going to show these people what you don't want them to see. I'm going to show them a world without you, a world without rules and controls, without borders or boundaries, a world where anything is possible. Where we go from there is a choice I leave to you. So - what do you think?

changster

Sun, 25 May 2003 08:19:52 -0500

I just saw the movie for the first time. Loved it. I enjoyed reading all the post so far and want to add my 2 cents. I feel way to understand this movie is to identify the underlying philosophical principle. The movie just shouts the yin / yang duality to me. A quick background about Yin / Yang. "This Symbol (Yin-Yang) represents the ancient Chinese understanding of how things work. The outer circle represents "everything", while the black and white shapes within the circle represent the interaction of two energies, called "yin" (black) and "yang" (white), which cause everything to happen. They are not completely black or white, just as things in life are not completely black or white, and they cannot exist without each other" - Humans need the machines and vice visa. As the counselor so clearly points out to Neo. Neither can survive nor prosper without the other. But there is a consistent struggle for power of the other. The machines can't totally control the humans. The first attempt of the matrix failed. There must be a choice so the Architect and the Mother create a system of control where universe (the matrix and the Zion in the real world) will renew itself. The Oracle, Zion, the One is all part of the system of control which allows Neo go back to the Source and reboot the system and keep everything running in balance. However, the balance with not kept in this instance of the world. Neo rebels against authority too much, loves and hopes too much. Now both man and machine risk complete and total mutual destruction. - Neo is human and machine, just as Agent Smith is now machine and human. Again the duality here. I don't know why Neo has the special power to send EMP, but clearly Neo passes out with the blue glow around his head just like the damaged machines indicates the Neo has the same weakness as the machines in the real world. Like the Yin / Yang. Each part must have some aspect of the other. Majority of the machines are cold and mathematical, while very small number of machines understand the need for "love", "hate", and other emotions (Persephone, the Mother, Agent Smith). Off track here, but this might explain why Reeves acting is so deadpan, he is part machine. My prediction about Revolutions.. The conflict is individual vs. the masses, emotion vs. logic, choice vs. fate, humans vs. machines. Both will need to create a new system of co-existence that doesn't involve this constant risk of mutual destruction. Two parallel revolutions within the man and machine community that is expressed in the final fight with make this happen so how.

Macca

Sun, 25 May 2003 07:18:31 -0500

Another question... Did the twins survive? Also, rewatching the trailers for Reloaded there are a couple of bits that weren't in the film. (At least in my recollection.) One was the guys with the shoulder rocket launcher and another is a voiceover between Trinity and a French accent (The Merovingian I assume). Merovingian: "You are ready to die for this man?" Trinity: "Believe it." I can't remember if this was said in the conversation in the restaurant. Can someone help me out?

Psychofox

Sat, 24 May 2003 17:25:56 -0500

Just another small detail. I have now seen the film twice, and I am sure I have seen something which may have a strong bearing on theories about the Matrix within a Matrix. When Neo says to Trinity that "the bullet is still inside you" he puts his hand into her and we see the Matrix code. Then there is a cutscene to Morpheus where he injects something into one of Trinity's inplants. Then (and this is the point) I am sure there is a split second clip of what looked like a hand pulling something from a bunch of black wires/cords amongst the reddish gue we saw in the first Matrix film where the humans are incubated. If anyone else saw this then PLEASE give me ur views, because it is making my brain go wild. Im sure I didnt imagine it!

Shaf

Sat, 24 May 2003 14:24:04 -0500

My take. Obviously a lot is left open for debate. The Architect is an avatar of the machines, an embodiment of the universal laws of mathematics. As he suggests, he is the "Father" of the Matrix and as Neo guesses, The Oracle is the mother. I know people have guessed that Persephone might fill this role, but there's really no hard evidence for this (not including the "hard" evidence gained from staring at Monica Belucci - rowr) as opposed to a LOT of evidence behind The Oracle being the mother. The Architect sees the world as a mathematical model solveable through equation, and is incapable of understanding human intuition and emotion. That's where the Oracle comes in. The two are working as a team, presently. To further explain, let me take a cue from the Architect and use a grotesquely oversimplified mathematical metaphor. From Douglas Adams, we know that the answer to life, the universe, and everything is 42. The Architect wants to divide this up into an equation to characterize human existence. So, naturally, he splits it into 42 elements of 1, creating his "perfect" mathematical model. It fails, the humans reject it, and "entire crops [are] lost" as Agent Smith put it in the first movie. So The Oracle comes along with a better idea. For whatever reason (intuition, love, emotion), the humans will accept The Matrix when divided by 13. Unfortunately, in Integer math, that can only account for 39 of the 42 parts of humanity. The three left over will reject The Matrix, as did everybody in the first go-around. But it turns out that if you create this alternate Matrix, known as Zion, the 0.1%, or 3 out of 42, will find it, accept that they are in the "real" world, and can thus still be controlled in Zion. But take Zion as dividing out by two. That still leaves a remainder of 1, aka Neo. He is the one person that rejects both the "Traditional" matrix (Earth) and the "Upper" matrix (Zion). It's clear that the supernatural powers in the world, being able to "bend the rules" of the program are derivative of being able to reject that reality. The Zion residents, the 0.1%, have powers in The Matrix. Neo has extraordinary powers in The Matrix, and, given his destruction of the Sentinels at the end of the movie, has some similar (if potentially lesser - ergo his coma) powers in Zion as well. This is the case because he rejects both realities. So, anyway, The Architect and The Oracle know that if left unchecked, the remainders of their realities will end their control over humanity, so they have designed a system to purge out that element every so often, using deception as opposed to control. They bury a few lies in what is mostly the truth, concoting a prophecy of "The One" as their salvation, when in truth, of the left door vs. right door choice given to Neo (analagous to the red pill vs. blue pill choice he was given in the first movie), neither choice resulted in the humans' triumph over the programs, as prophecized. The whole point of everything leading up to that point was to get Neo to step into the right door, reboot the Matrix, and rebuild Zion from a seed of humanity. They can't simply destroy Zion, as it's clear that Zion is a necessary component in order for the first Matrix to work ("The otherwise contradictory systemic anomaly"), but they will, if Neo chooses the right door and goes back into the Matrix to save Trinity. "There are levels of survival we are prepared to accept". I.E., now that Neo is onto their duplicity, it's war, and the third movie will be about Neo's attempt to save humanity from extinction. All just guesses of course, but that's the most consistent explanation that I can come up with. I think it was made fairly clear that Neo now has powers in the Zion world similar (but not identical) to what he has in The Matrix, and that what took out the Sentinels was *not* an EMP (as previously suggested, an EMP would have shut down the ship for a while as well - it did in the first movie). It seems likely to me that the resolution will not be in one side's victory over the other, but in the re-achievement of a symbiosis and greater understanding between the two. The conversation that the Counselor and Neo had in the Engineering level is one hint at that, the existence of Persephone (a rogue sentient program in The Matrix fascinated with the idea of human love) is another. In which case Agent Smith is the only real villian left at the end, a computer program given a dose of freewill but unprepared to deal with it, resulting in the creation of a mindless, self-replicating computer virus intent on destroying anything and everything it can. And in a pure, non-meta movie comment, I can only find amusement with those who felt the story of the second movie was somehow inferior to the first. The first, once you got past the idea that it was redefining reality, was a very straightforward hero's journey/biblical allegory. The second, leading to the third, appears to be striking out in an entirely new direction. Excellent film.

some guy

Sat, 24 May 2003 13:46:56 -0500

I think Neo is the machine from the 9th Animatrix film Matriculated (the machine that the humans in the real-real world inspired to join their rebellion/revolution). Working with RIO's idea (that the "real" world is just another part of the matrix), in the real-real world the machine found other humans and cunningly decided to inject itself into the matrix as the 6th replacement of the Neo entity (where previous ones were programs or humans coded by the Architect/Oracle), but with the difference that it would choose love, something previously unknown to machines, and thus create a revolution within the matrix, and eventually cause its downfall. The Oracle said it wasn't the one because its not a human but a machine, and it chose a different door because its a machine and injected itself into the matrix with that intention.

Osiris

Sat, 24 May 2003 11:39:07 -0500

The BIG Question, has it got the potential (The first one got better each time you watched it) to be better than the original?? Tough one!

Mr__Anderson

Sat, 24 May 2003 08:58:17 -0500

I think with the thermodynamics of the fact that it just wouldn't work, and that they could just use fusion, I think that they won't provide an explanation 4 that, u can't it's ludicrous. The point is that the films are based on various philosiphies, nothing is real anymore, that french guy (philosipher in real life, not in the film) wrote a book that we live life through signs, newspapers and TV so nothing is real anymore. Thats the book where Neo hides his minidiscs in the first film. Also, they wouldn't have been able to make films about it if the Machines just used fusion (or used elephants in the matrix, that would be funny tho), thus the film is not about seeking a logical explanation to them using humans, but about the humans in the matrix and what they do.

Macca

Sat, 24 May 2003 07:46:38 -0500

Two things, One is that when Neo was brought back to life I always felt it was more than just the "magic" provided by Trinity's kiss. When Neo asked Morpheus if you can be killed in the Matrix Morpheus replies "The mind makes it real". If Neo properly accepted his status as the "One" then he truly grasped the concept of the false reality right through his various layers of consciousness. (Compared to everyone else who are freed who just accepts it with reason but do not fully grasp it wholeheartedly. Hence he knew he had not been killed and after he realised he could come back from the dead he knew he was the One. Also, I don't know what it entirely means when it says Neo's code (and everything that was special about it) is needed to restart Zion. Why couldn't any one of the 1% be used. (I know there are superficial arguments to explain this but could someone please come up with something more than "but Neo's the ONE!!"). I was thinking though rather than the matrix-within-a-matrix idea, perhaps there are various virtual realitys connected with a central core of the machine mainframe mentioned somewhere in the movie. This means that a "real world" matrix wouldnt be another level but just on an equal footing with "the matrix" matrix. Hence when humans in the "real world" plug into "the matrix" they are just switching from one virtual reality to another. This could mean than when any of the "One"s choose the right-hand door (the salvation one) an entirely new "real world" matrix is created and hence no-one in the new matrix remembers the last "real world" matrix as they think theirs is the first. (With the exception of the "One" that created it but what happens to him is a bit hazy anyway.) As for the Smith issue. In the first film Smith tells Morpheus how much he hates living in the matrix as it has a "stench" of humans who he detests. Now that he is a renegade program he can not get out of it other than destroying everything, machines and humans alike. (I think theres a hint of this in the Revolutions trailer.) P.S. Can somebody give me some thoughts on my last post - everyone has seemed to ignored it!

Mr__Anderson

Sat, 24 May 2003 07:13:42 -0500

I liked that Neo being a machine but wait, huge hole, what about the various readings on the Nebucanezzer (yeah wrongly spelt) the readings of his heart I mean, it's not just a frequency graph, there's an actual image of his heart moving on those screens.

Mr__Anderson

Sat, 24 May 2003 07:09:37 -0500

Also, if the architecht said Neo was different coz he loved Trin, then the entire previous One stories are different. As we all know it was coz of Trin that he became aware, the power of love meant he became the one in his second life (long story, basically oracle says he's waiting 4 his nxt life to be the one, Q, he died and came back to life). Thus have there been any previous Ones, surely it take the power of love to grant someone that deity-like power?

Mr__Anderson

Sat, 24 May 2003 07:07:43 -0500

Chuck, I believe Persephone is Mommy because the Architecht talks about an affinity with emotions, an understanding of the human phsyche, something not demonstrated by the oracle but Persephone wanted the kiss, talks about love ect. I's not definite but I reckon so. Morohtar, yes you're right, but the architecht said about the inevitability, "there's nothing you can do to save her," so either he lied or was wrong.

Joona

Sat, 24 May 2003 05:10:22 -0500

RIO, you said that no explanation is given for why Agent Smith is trying to kill Neo. Well, Smith is a virus in a system and it`s spreading all the time making the matrix more unstable. Smith is trying to get out of the matrix, perhaps destroy it (remember the movie matrix) because he hates it. If Neo completes his mission (that architect stated) as the One it means that Smith is deleted. So Smith has also motives for his actions. The party scene in Zion has been discussed a lot (mostly negative comments). I think that it symbolizes the not so superior aspects in human beings. There is also an analogy in the Bible, I`m sorry that I don`t remember it.. The thaughts and dialog in this film are something I have never seen before in a major movie production. That`s why it`s hard for me to accept that the "party scene" would be just a bad scene without any better meaning. If someone has information or thoughts about the "party", share it with others.

lwc

Sat, 24 May 2003 04:50:50 -0500

I was going to see this movie to fill my 2 movies a year quota (unlike some people whose quota is 70) because it's almost June and I haven't been in a movie theater yet this year. Thought I'd just go and be "entertained". Now that I see all this debate, I think my brain may have to work a little with this film.

Chuck

Sat, 24 May 2003 04:46:20 -0500

First thing, I don't understand this part, when neo's code is reinserted into the matrix does it reboot or does it continue the way it has been going? if it does reboot then why do none of the people wake-up when there world is shut down and rebooted? I understood it to be that they just spread neo's code over the matrix and that was that. I was just confused, i have heard people say it both ways. Second, RIO: if neo is a machine and by logic that would mean the previous 5 "one"s would be machines too, how come they have died? that point is not as concrete as this one: during both of the movies, the agents and everyone else has made a point to say "only human" and such to neo, the machines and the programs would definatly recognize one of there own. I think he is human; but i have no idea how he could have done the trick he did with the machines, aside from the matrix within a matrix idea that i don't like. Third, Mr. Anderson, how do you know that Persephone is mommy? the only reason there is to believe that the Oracle is not mommy, is that the architech says "please" and never elaborates. Granted this is a good reason to doubt, but why Persephone?

RIO

Sat, 24 May 2003 03:44:32 -0500

in the words of Neo "whoa"... I just came up with what I think is a pretty viable theory of what's really going on with the plot of Reloaded. At the end of the film they show Neo stoping machines outside of the matrix in "the real world" with just his own will power. When I first saw this scene I felt like this broke the fundamental rules of the Matrix films. Why? Well it looked like they were now saying 'Neo has special telekinetic powers that allow him to stop machines even in the real world' or something like that. Basically, that kind of "magic" would go against the set rules established by the first film. But, there are two other possible explanations. One, which I'm not strongly behind, is that Neo is in a matrix within a matrix, and we won't see the true "real world" until the end of the last film (Revolutions). The second, the one I'm leaning towards, is that Neo is in fact a machine himself. Reasons why: -The Architect told Neo that he is an "expected" anomaly designed to reset the matrix. This indicates programming design, rather than some errant human based glitch. -Persephone, the wife of the frenchman Merovingian (a renegade program in the matrix), says that Merovingian was "like Neo at one time". -Absolutely NO real explanation is given for why Agent Smith is still trying to kill Neo. Smith admits that he is now a renegade program no longer working for the matrix. So are we to assume Smith simply has a grudge with Neo? That's too simplistic for the Wachoski's (the directors). No, I think Smith represents the faction of machines that don't believe in humanity/feelings/peace with the humans. Smith is trying to stop a truce with the humans. Smith probably knows that Neo is a machine and isn't telling him. In fact, all through the film people keep telling Neo, in various ways, that he still doesn't really know himself. -Only a machine could really stop another machine outside of the Matrix in the "real world" like Neo did, unless we're expected to now believe in "magic", something the directors have not given precedent for. -In an interview on Charlie Rose, Reeves says that he feels the ultimate message of the final film is love and compassion. He doesn't say triumph over evil, or release from oppression, he says love. This indicates that some sort of truce may be in the offing between man and machine. Who better to initiate such a truce than a machine (Neo) who has learned to love a human (Trinity). -The "choice" that the Architect refers to when addressing Neo... The Architect seems convinced, due to 6 previous situations (beta tests?) that Neo will chose the door leading to reset the matrix and guarantee the saving of mankind. Instead Neo "chooses" to save Trinity. Perhaps it is this choice that the machines have been attempting to cultivate in their own ranks in order to better understand/live with humans on the planet. -Persephone (a renegade progam) makes a big deal about getting a kiss from Neo. This hints that there is a faction in the machine world that longs for "human-like" feeling, or love. Neo could be that bridge between their two worlds to initiate the "Third Renaissance (an Animatrix reference). -The final film is entitled "Revolutions". It could have just been "Revolution". The title "Revolutions" indicates that more than one revolution, or paradigm shift, will occur. The most obvious one after the human revolution, would be a revolution in which machines no longer hunt humans due to a "choice" made by a machine (Neo). -Finally, the most compelling hint in my view stems from a closer review of the animated shorts "Renaissance 1 & 2" that were written by the Matrix directors to tell the prequel story to the Matrix films. In those shorts, we see perfectly replicated humanoid robots interacting seamlessly with real humans. So the idea that there are human looking robots hiding in plain sight in "the real world" in the Matrix films is not an unrealistic notion. If Neo turned out to be a humanoid robot, that would explain many things. For instance, in the first film when Trinity wakes Neo up from the dead with just a kiss. Either Trinity has some "magic" of her own that we haven't been told about, or Neo's body isn't as frail and perishable as a normal human's. Thus, he was able to come back to life despite being killed in the matrix. Something no other human could do. Either that, or again, we must simply believe in "magic", something the directors have not been advocating. In all the Matrix theories I heard, few people use the Animatrix shorts as additional reference guides. That's short-sighted because the Wachowski's actually wrote those animated stories. It would be foolish to think that they wrote those stories with no underlying hints/connections to the live action films. btw, jen, your site rocks. ;^)

Morohtar

Sat, 24 May 2003 02:39:31 -0500

Actually, Mr. Anderson, Trinity DOES die at the end and Neo brings her back, hence "I guess that makes us even" Another reason for Zion in addition to providing an alternative to the 1% - forcing the One to choose between everyone in the Matrix and trying to save a supposedly doomed Zion - and possibly causing complete human extinction. Apparently, Neo's predecessors chose to save the people of the Matrix and allow Zion to perish - Neo has chosen differently. It's a workaround for a programming bug.

Macca

Fri, 23 May 2003 20:53:48 -0500

Here's another thought. Part of the problem with the original films idea of the humans being used as a power source is that it wouldn't actually work. Human's are not entierly renewable as the remains of several humans would have to be used just to feed one human of the next generation. Even ignoring the energy needed to create the simulation of the matrix the machines would be losing energy doing this. However Reloaded solved this (by accident or design), every "anomaly" 23 humans are released and using human techniques (that perhaps the machines can't use) the humans get new energy until their population swells to 1/4 million and get inserted back into the matrix. Just a thought. P.S. But then again I believe the matrix-within-a-matrix theory so the whole of my post is made invalid!

Mr_Anderson

Fri, 23 May 2003 20:16:57 -0500

somebody way up there said the oracle lied to Neo in Matrix1, never happened, she never lied, she told Neo he wasn't the one, that he was "waiting for something" "What?" "Who knows? Your next life maybe." Uh, he died, his next life indeed was the one when he woke up. Thus we can see that all the oracle's prophecy's have come true, her's 4 Trin, 4 Morpheus and 4 Neo, thus she is telling the truth, The architecht lied, he said Trin would die, she didn't, trust The Oracle, not the Architect. P.S. Persephone is Mommy

Matt

Fri, 23 May 2003 19:29:28 -0500

I dont belive there is a matrix within a matrix, I think there is just 1 matrix. In that matrix the 1 % that belive they are free are still infact within the matrix beliving that they have hope, but they are still imprissoned just as the other 99%. This would explain neo being able to stop the sentinals. This is the machines way of dealing with the 1% of people who don`t accept the matrix, very clever i thinks.

Sam

Fri, 23 May 2003 19:07:44 -0500

Finally saw it. Overall it was good. I can understand why the stupid people were complaining about the plot. By the way, why is it always the hippies who govern in the future? I'll quote Eric Cartman. "Hippies, smelly hippies, all around me... No, No!" I hate hippies. Rave scene. Stupid. And whoever was in charge of the music should be taken out back and shot. For Christ's sake... I actuallly listen to dance music but couldn't stand the cheese.

Howard

Fri, 23 May 2003 19:06:18 -0500

I've really enjoyed reading all of your posts, and I think it's great that this movie leaves so many things unanswered. I just hope the Revolutions doesn't disappoint and resort to more fighting and FX, while not fully addressing all of the answers we need. As for the multiple matrices theory, I think if that's the case, a great ending line for Revolutions would be Neo waking up and a voice saying to him, "Welcome to the real world." It would pose more questions, and be so open-ended it would aggravate everyone. While that may not be the best way to do it, I do hope that Revolutions doesn't tie up everything neatly, though I'm sure the answers we get will be interesting enough to make the movie compelling. One thing I've noticed also is that we almost have two clear-cut options as to what the ending of Reloaded meant, seemingly giving the audience the freedom to make the choice, thus keeping with the theme of the story. I can't wait to see how the Wachowski brothers finish off this series.

Joona

Fri, 23 May 2003 18:42:43 -0500

I think it`s quite obvious that Zion isn`t another matrix because it would be a bad way to end the reloaded. Have you thought about the scene where Persefone wants to kiss Neo (and help him too). She hates her arrogant husband and if the matrix reboots - well, i think you get it. The programs - especially the french talking brick - have their own goals and try to increase their own power.

Dan

Fri, 23 May 2003 14:44:59 -0500

About Neo's killing the sentinels at the end of th movie, someone had said that its due to what happened at the end of first Matrix movie; that involved neo jumping into agent Smith. I thought that smith was dead, but in this movie (Reloaded)Smith said that by neo jumping into his coding, he gained some of neo's powers (i.e. being "freed" and replicating himself). Just as agent Smith somehow was able to receive some of neo's powers, vice versa, neo was somehow able to receive agent Smith's powers also which included the abililty to control the sentinel. This is just another theory that is being floated around.