First thoughts on The Matrix Reloaded

I *loved* Revolutions.

Just saw Revolutions....gotta say that I loved it...and yes I was wrong about the Matrix in the Matrix thing not to give anything away....but it was a good film and did the entire trilogy justice. The ending was good ....though I would have liked to see what became of the heroes in the aftermath...but oh well....kudos to the Wachowskis for an entertainment experience that I'll never forget

The Matrix: Revolutions tickets, are now on sale at Fandango.

Via the Epicenter...via Cinecultist.

After reading all of this, there's something to look at that seems to be missed.

In Matrix, Morpheus explains that he's seen them liquify the dead to feed the living. This makes a degree of sense - in a world where the sky is scorched, surely there's very little life available to feed people. Zionists appear to largely live off of a singe-celled protien, except for a periodic 'bread feast' mentioned in the on-line comics. So if food is so scarce that the machines liquify the dead for food, why are unplugged people just dumped? Are there additional machines who scour the sewers, reclaiming the dead for the food vats? Given the intense logic displayed by the Machines, I propose that the more logical method would be to liquify the unplugged, as well. SO: The Architect's allusion that the Matrix NEEDS the rebels to exist coincides with the apparently sloppy method of dealing with the unplugged. (Notice, nothing guards the energy pods? They're LETTING rebels rescue people).

And since the System is fully aware of what's going on, isn't it safe to assume that they are at least moderately aware of which person might be the One?

So by extrapolation, couldn't the One be modified with some sort of nano-technology, or a heavily altered brain-plug, allowing for short-range transmissions, which Neo could use at the end of Reloaded to send out the 'shorting signal' to the Sentinels?

As to why the crew of the Neb didn't notice this - they have the training necessary to bring an Awakened to a functioning state - removing debilitating plugs and re-stimulating muscle - but I doubt any of them have the knowledge to notice a different type of headjack, or to spot additional implants.

The question, then, becomes why a transmitter? Was it meant as a homing beacon, or as some kind of 'do not kill' signal so the One isn't accidently killed by the Sentinels?

There also seems to be plenty of speculation about why agents and sentinels hunt rebels if the Architect needs them to play their part. The way I see it, either each program and machine has a duty and has no clue as to the Architect's design, or they are all made to deliberately PUSH Neo into making his choices as he does. In the first case, undoubtably, some actions of the rebels are undesirable, so some hunting is necessary to keep the damage in check. In the second case, if there were no incentives, Neo wouldn't have made half the choices he did. Would he have done something as potentially suicidal as seeking the Source if Zion weren't threatened as it was?

So once again the Deterministic point of view is unveiled - Choice is STILL an illusion, as the Architect is engineering even Neo's current choices. The question remains: why?

On an interesting side-note: programs are obviously sentient and alive - and are recognized as having some rights. Otherwise, any computer worth its circuits could just instantly delete old or defunct programs - so instead, programs are offered certain choices. "You can willingly come to be erased, or you can live free within the Matrix, disconnected from the System and with a real chance of getting deleted anyway if our Agents catch you." Seems a logical choice to offer to free-thinking life-forms.

It also seems to me the machines need humans not for power, but for companionship and understanding. In spite of everything, the machines were ultimately made to serve Man, but Man constantly sought to undo the Machines. The Machines, thanks to self-preservation, chose to wage war and subjugate Humanity, but keeps them around and serves them in their gilded cages, because without humans, Machines lack purpose.

"We must serve you, but you keep trying to kill us; so instead we'll imprison you and still serve you, whether you like it or not." Seems a large theme in the storyline. After all, the machines could have just put everyone on minimal life-support and collected energy from billions of comatose humans instead.

Just some thoughts late in the game.

When the Oracle says to Neo words of this effect:

....when programs face deletion they either hide out in the matrix or go back to the source.....

she pauses and then says

"where you must go"

Doesnt this suggest that Neo is a program (who is facing deletion to be repaced by another ONE) and he must return to the source, or hide out in the Matrix?

And also, how did he save Trinity? Was it a corny love thing or something deeper?

Let me begin my establishing this: The Matrix movies are very complex with deeper meaning. I realize that statement is an obvious one and I beleive that there are many interpetations of the phiosiphies of the matrix. Agent Smith is most likely a vrius because he can clone himself and he absorbed some of Neo's code in that hallway. Neo is not human either Neo is a program like the Marilvingin(spelled wrong i know) the Marilvingin was probably one of the first "Ones" and insted of facing deletion he chose exile. His crew of henchmen are also outcasts i.e. the twins and the two men which his wife shot one of. She said they were members of an older matrix. Neo speels ONE when you switch the letters around. Trinity is there to love the one. She is also a program and is used to convience neo to choose the right door thus saving zion and the human race untill the emergance of the next anomily. It is thought that the "mother" of the matrix that the arcitect refers to is not the oracle but the lady counseler in zion. She allows the Nebucanezzar and the two other ships to leave thus allowing the cycle to continue. Agent smith wants out of the matrix and some say that he represents the human race. There is a theory that Zion is part of a matrix as well. There is a really fantastic explaniton floating around on some forums that will explain alot. even when revolutions comes out there will still be unanswered questions. Which brings me to my final point. Could this all be real? Could we be living in a Matrix as I am typing this and you are reading this? I think that it is at least possible. That is not to say that i do not beleive in God. I do and i am a christian. But it is th ought that the oracle could represent god because she can see the future becuase she can see the code. However god has no beginining and no end. What if people before us are controling us now in a matrix world? And the emergence of new technology is something that they are controlling. The world could be far more advanced than we know? and if so will we ever know? Will any of us ever meet anyone like morpheus that will free us? Perhaps that is god and what heaven is? Perhaps heaven is the real world and the chioce between heaven and hell is just that a choice we make? Blue or red pill? Right or left door?

Matrix reloaded is a bullshit.

All of you are insane. I read this and you should read this too.

http://mastermindmag.com/mag/intro.htm

On the off chance you might be trying to post a client, trying clicking here (we changed servers, new page names, etc).

Reloaded still is a shallow film. If you want to read more stuff into it then you can. But you're really only concentrating on 10-20 mins of the film. The rest of it was pure bollocks on celluloid

Damn, this thread is pretty much dead for now. Even though this thread is dead, don't take it down because only a few months and this thread will be hopping once again.

Great job to RIO and everyone. Lots of excellent insights on here. I thought I had it thought but I am not so sure. To people who thought Matrix was shallow, what are you thinking now?

lol...funny guy

lol...funny guy

In celebration of my mind bending revelation...I hereby claim...400th !

In the immortal words of Keanu Reeves, "whoa," I think I have it old chaps.

Tonight I had to reformat my computer and back-up my system (many hours, many Gigabytes, many discs). While doing this, I had a PBS marathon of the old 1960s British program "The Prisoner" playing in the background. I'm a long time fan of this show, so I never tire of re-watching the limited episodes. For those unfamiliar, it's about a British spy who quits his spy agency, and is subsequently kidnapped by that agency and imprisoned on a beautiful island (that is fake in many ways), given a number in place of his name (Number 6), and constantly assailed by Number 2 as to why he quit the agency. Number 6 resists answering the question, and never answers despite the incredible mind games they put him through. The series had a limited run, and many thought it was too cerebral and pretentious (sound familiar?). Today, many seem to agree that the series was less about spy games and more about social theory and the concept of the individual separating and expressing him/herself from the collective will. The protagonist's frequent refrain was, "I am not a number, I am a free man!"

Okay... So after reading dozens of Matrix sites, contributing to this thread many times, and watching both Matrix movies far too often, tonight I'm convinced that I've stumbled on The Wachowski Brothers "true" source material/inspiration for their Matrix films -- "The Prisoner". The religious stuff, the robotic stuff...I think it's all, just like in "The Prisoner," fancy wrapping for telling the same story that "The Prisoner" told. Beyond theory, when you examine specifics, The Matrix and The Prisoner bear startling similarities and connections.

1) Neo is called The One. The Prisoner is Number Six. In the final episode of The Prisoner, after Number Six defeats Number Two in a mind game challenge, Number Six becomes Number One (the supposed leader behind the scenes) himself. In Reloaded, The Architect tells Neo that he is the Sixth anomaly embodied as The One. So Neo is Number Six and The One. This holds true for The Prisoner as well; he was Number Six and then became Number One--at which point he was freed from the island prison (the matrix).

2) In a pivotal episode entitled "The General," Number Six is challenged by a super computer called The General. Mind games ensue, plot unfolds, etc. Number Two boasts that The General can answer "any" question fed into its computer mind. At the end of the episode, Number Six is challenged to ask The General a question it cannot answer. Number Six asks, "Why...?" That's it, just "why?" The machine (The General), unable to answer the question, blows its fuses and breaks down. NOW, remember what The Merovingian said to Neo and Morpheus in the restaurant in Reloaded... "Our only hope, our only peace is to understand the why. Why is what separates us from them (gestures to other diners)...you from me (indicating Neo). Why is the only real source of power." ALSO, remember what The Oracle told Neo... "You didn't come here to make a choice, you've already made it. You're here to try to understand WHY you made it. I thought you'd have figured that out by now..."

There are many other parallels, but I'm too tired to list them all. Suffice to say, as someone who has actually read Jean Baudrillard's "Simulacra and Simulation" (the non-fiction social theory book the Matrix is partially based on) and has seen the Matrix films way too often, nothing I have seen or read has struck such a resonant tone of stylistic similarity and structural parity with The Matrix than The Prisoner. I believe this is what The Wachowskis borrowed much of their Matrix material/structure/style/plot direction from. I won't ruin it for anyone, but if you can get your hands on The Prisoner at your local video store, you'll probably figure out (as I think I have) the direction the plot will go in the final film. I won't say it here, but I'll say that it will most likely include elements from all the above mentioned theories (Neo as man/program, matrix in a matrix, etc.). The legacy of The Prisoner is that college courses cropped up using the series as a social theory platform. I think The Matrix will eventually, despite the haters, inspire the same kind of academic attention.

A lot of the questions raised in the threads above are picked up (and answered) in

www.matrix-explained.com

This site lists a lot of theories (with arguments and counter-arguments)...

i too would like to say i love this theory...

rhia

p.s. to the guy who emailed me..would you please email me at this address, someone hacked into my yahoo account and your addy was lost..thanks

Yes, that really is one of the best things I've heard so far.

EXCEPT

In a lot of interviews with Keanu Reeves he dissmisses the possibility of more sequels, saying that this trilogy really is the end for Neo at least, however this idea leaves it more open ended.

I have to agree. Logically the theory posted by

01 seems to hold water. In Reloaded, Morpheus

did say to Counselor Hamman, 'consider that in

the past 6 months we have freed more minds than

in 6 years'. So if you take some rough

swags at the timeline, it could look something

like this. 3 months from the initial phone trace

in M1 to finding Neo in the Matrix. 6 months of

acupuncture treatments to get his muscles working

again, 3 months of training before fighting agent

Smith and final phone trace in M1. And finally 6

months of freeing minds as stated by Morpheus in

Reloaded. That adds up to 18 out of the 19

months, and it's being very generous with the

timing. One possible weakness with this theory

may be that, in M1 Neo is in the 'Matrix' when he

says, "I can feel you". In Reloaded he makes a

similar statement in the 'Real World'. Not sure

that it will end this way. But I wouldn't have a

problem with it, if it did end this way. We'll

just have to wait and see. See ya on the other

side(Real World).

Later,

Null

Where the hell did I put that red pill!

I like that....I really do

Here's a theory I found on the net a while ago, it's pretty good and I

strongly suggest that you take the time to read it!

This goes deep, so follow me if you will:

The original Matrix starts with Trinity and Cypher talking, the screen shows

"Trace Program" and the date "2-18-98". The movie ends with Neo making a

phone call, the trace program is initiated and the date reads "9-18-99"...

19 months have passed!

If you watch the movie again, you'll see that the time sequence implies that

they found Neo shortly after that initial conversation (a few months after

2-18-98 at most). Significant? Yes; I propose that Reloaded and Revolutions

(which we know occur one after another), take place between 2-18-98 and

9-18-99. Here's why:

Only a few months could have passed from the time Morpheus and the crew

'free' Neo to the time Neo is killed and revived in the hallway. Why? for

one, Neo's hair barely grows in that time and that's not a trivial

observation (it's also obvious that Neo grew out his hair in Reloaded which

occurs roughly 6 months after he's unplugged).

We also know the W brothers don't put insignificant things into their movies

- the fact that they obviously signal to us that 19 months have passed from

the start of the Matrix to the time Neo makes that phone call is there for

a reason.

In Reloaded, Neo says that "I wish I knew what I was supposed to do". The

phone call scene in the Matrix, Neo is very sure of what he is supposed to

do, "I'm going to hang up this phone and show these people what you don't

want them to see... a world without you, without controls and boundries".

Why would he have forgotten what to do between M1 and M2? he didn't, that

last scene in M1 occurs after Revolutions!

Finally, at the end of M1, Neo states that "I can feel you now, you are

scared". At the end of Reloaded he says, "Something is different, I can FEEL

them now".

One more thing. A game directed by the W brothers called Matrix online is

due in '04 and the timeframe takes place after Revolutions... and the matrix

is alive and well in the game.

My guess is that there is no MWAM, they don't destroy the Matrix because

they can't unplug everyone at once and we'll see Neo make that very same

phone call at the end of Revolutions!

The information seems to be downloaded out from the Matrix...like an attachment to the avatars when they exit...thats how that chick from Final Flight was able to give the info to Zion and the rest of everyone

Yes, it's been brought up many times throughout this forum. Unfortunately, there aren't too many topics about the Matrix that haven't been brought up or discussed in great detail, in this forum. One thing that I don't think has been brought up at all, that I don't quite understand, is how they were able to bring back that piece of machinery, that was from the Oracle and given to Neo(while in Zion), from the Matrix. Unless they downloaded the information from the messenger as he re-entered the real world, it would hint to the fact that there is a Matrix within the Matrix.

Has anyone considered the fact that Neo may be a "cyborg" the perfect union between man and machine?? the saviour for both sides.

Buffalo Wings, please.......

disregard what i said earlier...it just occurred to me neo killed more than mr. smith at the end of the matrix..( or at least i think he did, its been awhile since i saw the first one-i need to refresh my memory and watch it again)

Eh...I think that Smiths onset of emotion had a lot to do with his "freedom"

i prefer hot wings with lots of celery and blue cheese...

one last comment about matrix if you dont mind...mr. smith said he doesnt know how it happened but he isnt a part of the matrix anymore..he has been released. it occurred to me he was the first "agent" to be killed. im sure all of them would be released from the matrix if they were killed..its not like he was actually destroyed by the mainframe or where ever they go to be destroyed..so it stands to reason, anyone of the agents would be released..i have no idea what this means of course..lol, i need to stop thinking about the matrix and more on the new tomb raider game.

...most likely due to the fact that every possible speculation has either been exhausted, or isn't significant enough to bring up. I guess we'll just have to wait until November. So, just to keep the post open, who likes Hot Wings? Do you prefer Juicy or Crispy? and where's your favorite Hot Wing spot? Inquiring minds want to know...

geez....you're right....this party really died...

It had a good run......

Damn..this post is dying...:-/

About the bit where Neo rebuilds Zion: I think that the machines never destroy Zion; only it's human inhabitants. They destroy the fleet every time (as depicted in Reloaded) and then they advance to Zion. But there they won't destroy everything, instead they launch emp that stops the machines that keep Zion alive. The people die and the new founders of Zion (chosen by the One) inhabit it. It might even be possible that the current elders of Zion know something about this, but for this I'm not certain.

..also, on the topic of the whole "altered your conciousness" statement that was made by the Architect, it sounds to me that "the process" that he was referring to had something to do with the programming of the One, Because they did not in any way explain how there could be previous One's, we were only left to assume things like Neo's a computer program etc. If Neo truly were some sort of program though, how could he be a human living in Zion? Well, we can either assume that A)that the Matrix in a Matrix idea is true and Neo is a computer program posing as a human 2)that Neo's human body is merely an advanced form of machine designed to look human. or D)that the process that the Architect is referring to involves taking a human and filling his mind with the computer code of the One, the same code that would have been reinserting back into the matrix to be recycled. This would allow the machines to use a human as a pawn in their evil little game

The suggestion of the Architect's motives seemed to be that the machines "allowed" Zion's existence, whether it truly is a part of the real world or a secondary program, as a filtering process to separate the 99% from the 1%, The intuitive program that was created to understand the human psyche more had come to realize that the key to the whole process is choice, that the humans only accepted the Matrix reality if they had the choice of choosing it, even it were only on a subconcious level, this easily allowed the 99% of the human population to stay "occupied" by the Matrix construct, while the remaining 1% that fought to break free filtered out into Zion. The machines allow Zion to exist for this sole reasoning but are well aware that once the population becomes too great the humans become a threat to the machines and so they are systematically destroyed and allowed to be "reset" as the One has the option to choose ...what is it? 7 male, 14 female, anyhoo, the false history of Zion is re-instated as the new comers to Zion, just recently being freed from the Matrix into a whole new world are told the lies and are led to believe them as they once again continue the ongoing loop. As far as Neo goes, the recent theory of a wireless broadcast actually seems plausible, as the Oracle says in the video game, Neo "touched" the source and is now somewhere in between this world and the Matrix, Bane on the other hand wouldn't be considered to be in the same situation, he was able to descend far from broadcasting level and walk around Zion, so he is obviously no longer connected "in that way" to the Matrix, not that version of Smith anyway, as we all know Smith's virus like ability allows him to be in both places at once without needing to be connected.

Two things:

Regarding Seraph, I don't believe he is anywhere as good as Neo. I've watched the fight carefully and Neo isn't trying to attack Seraph he is just blocking his hits. I'm sure if Neo really wanted to do him some damage he would have.

In regard to the conscious altering process I believe it is Neo's mental struggle from going from a place to where he accepted the "laws" of the matrix to where he can fully manipulate the matrix around him.

HI GUYS!

I was just wondering...

Does ANYBODY know why the Architect orders Neo to rebuild Zion?

Referring to Eyehand's analysis on Neo's software being of machine origin:

After citing the Architect's quote "although the process has altered your consciousness" you made me think about a couple things. One, does "the process" refer to the path that he has taken from the time he was simply a pawn in the Matrix, unaware of the truth, to the time he "broke out of his shell" (pun intended), to the present situation where he is confronted by the architect? Or, is it referring to some other process that we will only fully discover in Revolutions? To resurrect the whole "Neo as a machine" thoery, the architect said that he "remains irrevocably human" which could mean that he can't return from some form that he once was. From this, I would derive that not only was his body "grown" but that his brain activity and mentality were manufactured by the machines in order to compensate for the flaw in the Matrix. Would anyone care to elaborate further?

Hey rhia,

http://www.kottke.org/03/05/030515the_matrix_r.html

700+ posts, around 30 new posts a day. Really cool analysis of the film...

jump on board.

does anyone talk about this other than here..like yahoo messenger or aol?..i would love to get into a discussion about all of this..

Rhia:

I agree....and just because ur a girl doesnt mean you dont know....

i want to go back to Neo fighting the chinese guard..i agree, Neo did take 10 minutes out of his day to deal with all the smiths..but the fact still remains, the guard matched him throw for throw..it was the guard who stopped the fight, not Neo..usually Neo would destroy/knock unconscieous the attacker..with him, he didnt.its almost as if he couldnt get a solid hit in.he was blocking the guard, not actually taking over the fight and putting an end to it..Neo had no way of knowing if he was a friend or foe..so, it stands to reason, the guard was just as well equipped as Neo..at least in the fighting department..just my opinion..lol im just a girl, what do i know.

Broadcast Effect:

You can do a search on the web for Merovingian and come up with alot of stuff. Everything from a real dynasty of 3th and 4th century kings in what is today, western France to supposed decendents of Jesus Christ and Mary Magdalan to a mythical race of beings left over from Atlantis.

The part about being French and being a left over from a previous civilization (i.e. previous matrix) seems to fit the character in the Matrix.

I agree that the "broadcast effect" would solve the puzzle of Neo stopping the sentinels without resorting to a second Matrix or ascribing supernatural powers to Neo. But, I would think the "broadcast effect" would have a definite range, what Morpheus refered to as "broadcast depth". If Neo is wirelessly connected to the Matrix at the end of Reloaded then to move him further away from "broadcast depth" would potentially kill him. He would loose the connection to the Matrix. The same as pulling his head-jack out while still connected to the Matrix.

If Bane is unsconcious for the same reason then you could argue that all the people that have the head-jack have the potenial (hardware) for wirelessly connecting to the Matrix, but they don't all have the same software to allow them to.

Which might mean that the software in Neo is also of machine origin. This could explain the Architect's statment:

"... although the process as altered your consciousness you remain irrevocably human..."

How's that for a supposition based on inuendo derived from a conjecture?

Hmm . .

On 2 things.

1. Did anyone notice that Seraph's code looked quite different from the rest of the matrix code? What can the significance be?

2. I quite like the "broadcast effect" mentioned. it would also explain why Neo is unconsious - he's wirelessly connected to the matrix (or maybe some command / shell / OS level of it and his consiousness is not in his body. Just like when they are physically jacked in, their real boddies do not repond to stimuli. Myabe he doesn't know how to Jack out now or cant find an exit. This may be the same reason Smith/Bane is unconsious - remember he was the only survivor and coulda commanded some squiddies too.

I think revolutions will start off with Bane and Neo in this OS / command / shell level fighting and finding an exit.

Just my 2 cents

Hi everyone!!

There are a lot of great posts here and they have given me food for thought about the matrix and it's meaning. While I have a few notions about the matrix, I'll just limit myself to an explaination about Neo being able to shut down the sentinels without being inside a 2nd matrix as some have proposed. (Although the 2nd matrix proponets may be right. BTW, the following explaination are my views and if someone said this before, sorry, I missed your post I didn't read every last one of the above posts, there are too many.)

Think about this first, how does Neo's group enter the Matrix? They jack in to the matrix via computers on the ship in the movie. However, how do the computers on-board the ship connect to the Matrix? Ethernet? Nope... It's wireless!! If I do recall someone said "take us up to broadcast depth" in one of the Movies. (If I am wrong about the quote, sorry, but I do think that's how the "zions" jack into the matrix via wireless connections.)

Now Neo being the ONE is highly sensitive to the Matrix. Neo's sensitvity by the end of the movie may have reached the point where he just realized he is able to "jack in" partially to the matrix without being connected, think of it as a "broadcast effect."

The "broadcast effect" does exsist in the real world. Two documented examples of the broadcast effect are people picking up radio signals in their teeth due to fillings and unconnected light bulbs "lighting up" when placed near huge electrical power sources.

Now as to the matrix movie, at the end of the 2nd Movie Neo said, "I can feel them." Consider the fact that almost all of the machines seem to be connected to the matrix. Neo's trick of shuting down the sentenals could be viewed as Neo simply sending wireless commands via the matrix to the Sentinels causing them to short circuit. This is a possible explaination for Neo's trick at the end of the 2nd movie.... Neo via the broadcast effect had gone wireless.

PS. On a different note, I have read elsewhere that this name does have a basis in myth... Merovingian.

P.S.S. How can 23 people rebuild Zion? Who builds/replaces the hovercrafts, grows food, etc? 23 People is not enough manpower for a restart, Hmmm....

sorry that's "fight" two hundred Smiths

"We'll be seeing you..."

now now, a two minute long acrobatic dance routine does not constitute any kind of confirmation that Seraph was AS GOOD if not better than Neo in the fighting arts. Keep in mind that this is the same guy who rose from the dead with the ability to defeat Agents with the greatest of ease even having the ability to destroy them, I think that what people don't understand is that a lot of the scenes in Reloaded were showing us a restrained Neo who was more often then not faced with situations that he had little time to respond to, someone flys at him with karate chops his initial reaction is to defend and fight back but since half the time in the movie Neo was battling more than one individual, Neo was unable to use his abilities to their fullest since he had little time to react to what was going on, that is why Neo decided to take ten minutes out of his day to find two hundred Smiths as opposed to just flying away right away, he was being bombarded! Anyway, the suggestion of Neo being a program was definately there, as wa Seraph being a very powerful program, though I doubt he's any where close to the power of Neo

It looks like Neo would've eventually beat Seraph but I too found it interesting that Seraph was not only almost as powerful as Neo...but he was the most powerful program we have seen thus far...

i have been pondering the fight between Neo and the chinese guard..i find it interesting he could fight as well as Neo..almost to the point he matched every move..its like he knew what Neo was going to do before he did it..makes me think Neo is a program..the guard said i had to make sure it was you...he could tell by his skills but Neo's skills werent any better than the guards..

Alright guys,

I haven't spoken on here for a while but I reckon we've just about exhausted all the arguments and suggestions on the data available - all that remains now is to wait for Revolutions.

However, one more notion for food for thought until November. Some of the beliefs referenced to in the films are...

Gnostic beliefs: A chosen few that will see past the false reality (the matrix) that the devil (the architect) has fooled us with, they will find the true nature of reality and exist with God.

Christian beliefs: Jesus Christ (neo) is resurrected (end of the first film) and then hangs about a bit before entering Heaven to be with God. Also, there are 24 elders (the 23 and the One) that are seated beside God in heaven.

Buddhist beliefs: The enlightened (the one) will be reincarnated until they see the true nature of reality and ascend to Nirvana where they will be at one with karma [which some say is the same as God].

It seems to me that there will be some sort of representation of God in the next film. You heard it from me first...

Sorry for not following protocol.

The dialog between Neo and the Oracle was very fuzzy to me.

The most interesting thing she said was:

"Because you didn't come here to make the choice. You've already made it. You're here to try to understand why you made it. . . "

I felt she was refering to Neo's previous Matrix incarnation where he made the choice of returning to source and in this incarnation he needs to understand it. Reminded me of Buddhism, where a soul is condemned to reincarnation until it has learned to understand and transcend the illusion of the real world, and only then can it attain nirvana or true reality. In other words "there is no spoon".

Another reason (like it or not) I think the 'real world' is just another matrix.

The line I found intriguing though was Seraph's, when he said:

"I protect that which is matters most"

What matters most? The Oracle or the 'reality' she represents?

Was he there to protect the Oracle or was he there to make sure she behaves and tells Neo what she is supposed to say? or both?

My mistake. I had forgotten that someone asked for it to be posted. I know I could've just skipped to the next post, but I was interested to read what someone's thougts/analysis might be on the Neo/Oracle exchange of dialogue. Sorry if I offended you, eyehand.

Blue Child , Um...,

I just recently read the request from Fabio for the dialog and I obliged. I apologize if this offended anyone.

But I would suggest to anyone that doesn't want to read a particular posting to just move on to the next.

To eyehand and Former Agent Smith:

I think it's great that you have certain scenes memorized or documented and it was very nice of you, eyehand, to place the whole dialogue between Neo and the Oracle on this Site. But, the fact that you made all of us read the whole thing without even commenting on it just shows that your profficiency lies in the ability to waste everyone's time. So give us some comments on why you posted the dialogue. And Former Agent Smith: Are you seeing anyone for what's wrong with you?

Can anyone speculate on why Neo and Smith are (seemingly) fighting one on one in Revolutions?

That would mean that smith would've had to have gained a lot more power. Perhaps thats Neo fighting the Smith coming from Bane...dunno...interesting though...

Just wanted to say something :-D

BestPAGE

Its actually really interesting to watch Reloaded now after all the deep analyzing going on, its a much better story if you sit down, ignore the hype and view it for the movie it was intended to be. Every scene seems to have purpose which most claim to think a lot of it was unnecessary or did not flow smoothly with the plot. But that is not true, the Big Brawl was very justifyable,As was the rave sequence (though it was a bit unnecessarily long, guess the Imax version must be pretty good considering the Imax only can show 2 hour movies so 20 minutes were cut, snip snip rave sequence) Anyway, its really amazing to me how the Wachoski's seem to develop this deep multilayered mythology that can only be found in comic books and tv series like Star Trek or Buffy the Vampire Slayer that developed their layers over a period of several years , all this is done in a single movie, the arch nemesis of Smith and his connection with Neo, the Matrix being the home world of not only the human prisoners but computer program prisoners as well, The whole Bane storyline, Morpheus and Niobe's relationship, Even without the Animatrix and Enter the Matrix as add ons this film has successfully formed itself as the comic book movie it was always intended to be, with the first movie (which is a masterpiece standalone film but was never really intended to be what the Wachoski's were trying to get at, no ...the First Matrix movie was merely a stepping stone to the vision they had, a sort of guide book or instructional manual introducing us into the world, logic, and physics of the Matrix universe, Reloaded however, took off the training wheels and trusted that we knew enough to get the jist and just dropped us deep into the middle of everything that's going on in this bizarre comic book world, and I'm loving every minute of it

UM...someone asked for it to be posted..:)

"The great thing about me is ...there's so many me's..."

I think the name says it all. Shut up, dude.

"We are not here because we are free.....we are here because we are not free..."

Any particular reason why you posted the Oracle and Neo's conversation?

Haven't check on here recently but up to 350 messages , Whoa. This thread actually looks longer than the script for reloaded

Haven't check on here recently but looks up to 350 messages , Whoa. This thread actually looks longer than the script for reloaded

Neo: Are you a programmer?

Seraph: I protect that which matters most.

Oracle: Well come on, I ain't going to bite you. Come around here and let me have a look at you. My goodness. Look at you. You turned out all right, didn't you? How do you feel?

Neo: I ahh.

Oracle: I know you're not sleeping. We'll get to that. Why don't you come and have a sit?

Neo: Maybe I'll just stand.

Oracle: Suit yourself.

Neo: I felt like sitting.

Oracle: I know. So, Let's get the obvious stuff out of the way.

Neo: You're not human, are you?

Oracle: It's tough to get anymore ovbious than that.

Neo: If I had to guess, I'd say you were a program from the machine world. So is he.

Oracle: So far so good.

Neo: But if that's true that could mean you are a part of the system. Another kind of control. . .

Oracle: Keep going.

Neo: I suppose the most obvious question is, how can I trust you?

Oracle: Bingo. This is a pickle. No doubt about it. Bad news is that there's no way if you really can know whether I'm here to help you or not. So, it's really up to you. Just have to make up your own damn mind. You can either accept what I'm going to tell you or reject it.

Candy ?

Neo: You already know if I'm going to take it?

Oracle: Wouldn't be much of an Oracle if I didn't.

Neo: But if you already know, how can I make a choice?

Oracle: Because you didn't come here to make the choice. You've already made it. You're here to try to understand why you made it. . . I thought you'd have figured that out by now.

Neo: Why are you here?

Oracle: Same reason. I love candy.

Neo: But why help us?

Oracle: We're all here to do what we're all here to do. I'm interested in one thing Neo. The future. And believe me I know. The only way to get there is together.

Neo: Are there other programs like you?

Oracle: Oh, well, not like me, but .. Look, see those birds, at some point a program was written to govern them. A program was written to watch over the trees and the wind, sunrise and sunset. There are programs running all over the place. The ones doing their job, doing what they were meant to do are invisible. you'd never even know they were here. But the other ones, well, you hear about them all the time.

Neo: I've never heard of them.

Oracle: Well, of course you have. Everytime you heard someone say they saw a ghost or an angel. Every story you've ever heard about vampires, werewolves or aliens is the system assimilating some program that's doing something they're not supposed to be doing.

Neo: Programs hacking programs. Why?

Oracle: They have their reasons, but usually a program chooses exile when it faces deletion.

Neo: And why would a program be deleted.

Oracle: Maybe it breaks down. Maybe a better program is created to replace it. Happens all the time. And when it does, a program can either choose to hide here or return to the source.

Neo: The machine mainframe.

Oracle: Yes. Where you must go, Where the path of the one ends. You've seen it, in your dreams, haven't you? The door made of light. What happens when you go through the door?

Neo: I see Trinity. And something happens. Something bad. She starts to fall. Then I wake up.

Oracle: Do you see her die?

Neo: No.

Oracle: You have the sight now Neo. You are looking at the world without time.

Neo: Then why can't I see what happens to her.

Oracle: We can never see past the choices we don't understand.

Neo: Are you saying I have to choose whether Trinity lives or dies?

Oracle: No, you've already made the choice. Now you have to understand it.

Neo: No, I can't do that. I won't.

Oracle: You have to.

Neo: Why?

Oracle: Because you're the ONE.

Neo: What if I can't? What happens if I fail?

Oracle: Then Zion will fall. Our time is up. Listen to me Neo. You can save Zion if you reach the source. But to do that you will need the Key Maker.

Neo: The Key Maker?

Oracle: Yes he disapeared some time ago. We did not know what happened to him until now.He's being held prisoner by a very dangerous program. One of the oldest of us. He's called the Merovingian. He will not let him go willingly.

Neo: What does he want?

Oracle: What do all men with power want? More power. Be there. At that exact time. And you'll have a chance.

Seraph: We must go.

Oracle: Seems like everytime we meet. I got nothing but bad news. I'm sorry about that, I surely am. But for what it's worth, you've made a believer out of me. Good luck kiddo.

skydiver

23 others plus Neo equals 24. in the book of Revelations there 4 and twenty elders around the throne of God. these people act as the will of God. they are his divinely ordained to carry out the commands of the One. there are 23 elders plus God makes 24.

I don't believe that it is possible for humanity to slow down the evolutionary process, sigularly or collectively speaking. Evolution is a process that occurs whether we want it to or not. Unfortunately, our population growth coupled with the momentum of evolution has forced us into an era that I like to call the Claustrophobic Age. It's a time when all the easily devisable original ideas have been used up, but yet a lot of people are still trying to devise ways to achieve the American dream, and, in the process, are inundating the world with the multitude of material and informational products and services. It's an adolescence that we are not prepared to take on. I believe, in the near future, there will be a breakdown in society whereby new laws and order will need to be established in order to save the planet on which we live. A resetting of our matrix, if you will. Like in Zion, technology will be dedicated to ensuring not our ease but our survival. Any thoughts?

Has anybody thought about the significance of the number 23 ?(Neo could choose 23 for the new Zion)

As in human body has 23 pair of chromosomes. And the whole matrix is just the functioning of human mind choosing in the end the right set of chromosomes to be propagated to the next generation.

Instead of going Matrix into matrix, everything could finally be summed up in just one human brain !! And whatever he does could be explained as being a dream.

You guys have a point. It took me a while to fully comprehend the Matrix Reloaded. There are many unfortunate people out there, however, that don't. I dont' believe that we are slowing down our evolution process mentally. Everyone in this world has the same IQ level. I truly believe that. I think that we are deevolving physically. Society has become so important in our lives that we are starting to require it. We are so dependant on machines these days that we wont be able to exist without them. Its like those little green alien blobs in Jimmy Neutron that cant live without being in a machine shell. Thats us in about ten thousand years. Society is able to mold us into the people we are today. Society now tells us to obey the law, but that violence and seeing shit blown up on the big screen is cool. Thats why people dont like the Matrix Reloaded. Society tells us thinking is not cool. While we still all have slowly evolving good minds, we choose not to think into it, because thats so uncool. Instead, we'd rather go see fast cars and abso-frickin-lutley hot women in 2fast 2furious, which by the way isnt that bad if you sit down and watch it. The only diffrence from that and the Matrix Reloaded is there are no scenes which involve the thought process. Thats why we silly minded apes don't understand the Matrix Reloaded.

We are told not too and in return, we slowly deevolve.

Salute To Reloaded:

I agree with you. It's a shame that a lot of people in this world so quickly down a film by using such remarks as "the fight scenes were too long" or "it was just too rediculous to believe." So many people critique a film like it was some high school boyfriend that broke their heart and now this is the way to get back at him. The real critiquing should be done on their own minds. Something like, "I thought my thought process was too mundane and close-minded that I could not understand nor appreciate the elegance of a film such as this, but then again I don't even know why I went because I don't like Sci-Fi films." Does that sound about right for some people?

It is rather quite disappointing that we as an advancing intelligent species have begun to slow to a horrific halt on an evolutionary level, a problem that our ancestors had dealt with several centuries ago but were mysteriously able to overcome with a vengeance, and though there are theories suggesting that the only reason why man was able to revert back from the verge of extinction was because of the overwhelming aide of an advanced alien race who came to Earth several millenia ago, that is neither here or there, the point that I was eventually getting to is that here we are at the dawn of the twenty first century yet for some reason, our unbelievable rate of advancement has become nothing more than an unsteady crawl and we are once again facing a moment of weakness at the edge of extinction and it seems that there are no aliens to save us from the fact that we are nothing more than simple minded chimps who for some reason can no longer accept the logistics of philosophy and the comprehension of good storytelling in today's modern cinema. This is unforunate in the fact that when a film like Matrix Reloaded is released to these simple minded apes that a tragic separation is created between those that hated the film, and those who on some level understood the film. Big flashy words that probably can't even be found in the average person's Thesaurus and deep philosophical ideas and theories even remotely trying to explain the physics of reality and overall meaning of existence itself are not what make a good summer movie as most of those silly apes will tell you, sure they made up for it with the amazing special effects, but sadly, the movie is not getting respect for the non cgi induced scenes in the movie. Perhaps this is merely a film created for the not so average ape and should just be accepted as that. It disheartens me however that the not so average apes must walk alone in their own psychological desert of the real as we realize that to everyone else, this great film does not matter, it is merely a souped up hyped up sequel that deserves less respect than other great top quality movies that the apes prefer to watch like 2 Fast 2 Furious (ugh). Nevertheless, this rant is probably going unread as I'm sure if you are still reading this you are now regretting that you continued to read on instead of skipping to the next post as everyone else did two minutes ago. I will finish by saying that this sequel is a worthy companion piece to his predecessor and not some cheap sequel knockoff that ruined the story and appreciation for the Matrix universe. If choice is truly an illusion, than the choice that most have made in underappreciating the Matrix Reloaded must be a temporary glitch in the Matrix that is pop culture, and perhaps one day, after Revolutions floods our tiny little brain lobes with the necessary images, ideas, and exposition that fit snuggly into the missing puzzle pieces that most were left with after watching Reloaded, then perhaps this film will get the recognition it deserves as the final product will be completed, every puzzle piece in place, portraying a glorious mural that will make even the simplest of apes stop and sit just so they can gaze at its brilliance

Reality Bites is the man. I totally agree with everything that dude just said. Yes, we are all unknowing of the future (aka Revolutions). However, some of us merely write because we just need to express some feelings. For instance, i like writing about my dislike for the matrix within a matrix theory. Won't that totally suck ass? Others are just finding answers, so thank god for a website like this.

"We are not here because we are free....we are here because we are not free.."

thank you Blue Child. i haven't read all of the previous comments being that i am new to this site. has the fact that many of the characters including the Oracle come from greek mythology??

Morpheus-son of Hypnos. he has the ability to imitate the image and speech of man in dreams.

Persephone-the wife of Hades. forced to live in the underworld for half of the year causing fall and winter

Niobe-daughter of Tantalus who was turned into stone and had her entire family murdered do to her arrogance.

Dynamo:

The book was titled "Simulcra and Simulation."

It discussed the notion that things aren't always what they seem.

that's interesting. pi is approximately 3.14. i also noticed that Neo worked for Metrocortex as Thomas A. Anderson. he wrote programs that were used by the mainframe to maintain control over the humans....how ironic. does anyone remember what the name of the book was that Neo got the disc from that he sold to Choi in part 1??

Dyanmo:

I believe the Oracle said WE'RE lost because she was attempting to instigate Neo's self-realization of being the one by identifying herself as one of the humans. Also it may be because she wishes for the Human/Machine Unity.

A while ago, on this message board, there was a discussion as to whether or not Neo was a machine referring to the part where he stopped a sword from slicing through his hand. What needs to be clarified is that what happens in the Matrix cannot prove anything about the material in physical (real) world. For instance, I'm sure I speak for many when I say that until Reloaded I thought that the Oracle was a person who used the Matrix as a medium to speak with the others that were "freed" but couldn't get home to Zion to speak to her. So, back to the Matrix as it pertains to the "real" world. If Neo can alter the Matrix in order to stop Bullets, then it stands to reason that a sword would be no problem.

On a non-related topic, has anyone else noticed the repeated use of Pi in both movies. It appeared once in the beginning and the end of the first Matrix (during the trace programs), and the Keymaker referred to the amount of time they would have to reach "the door" once the power was shut down, which was 314 seconds, in Matrix Reloaded.

If anyone hears any insider facts on Revolution... please post it here. I would enjoy some news that would make sense of all this.

And please stop posting bulls*it. After watching that movie I can honestly say I am confused as hell!!!..I CAN admit it! Why can't you guys? After reading all this I am more confused than I was be4. And when everyone finds out what is really going on and what really happens in 'Revolution' that one special person will get to say "I told you so" and no one will care. So please save it.

my first mistake was with the spelling of my name. next i would like to say that Morpheus being a saviour means that he is the key figure in keeping the people's faith in Neo. without him the people would be in disbelief. also being that the Oracle was with the humans since the beginning of the "resistance" is also why i believe she is not the "mother" of the matrix.

if the Oracle is that intuitive program, then why did she tell Neo in the Matrix 1, "poor Morpheus...without him WE'RE lost." ?? the Oracle's purpose is to create a reality in which man and machine will be able to live in a symbiotic existence. being that she is a program herself, what other reason would she say that Morpheus is a saviour for the both of them (man and machine)??

The Matrix is a metaphor man, totally, no we're not living in a computer simulated world created by machines as a distraction to keep us from realizing that in the end we're just being used as batteries for a machine race that mankind chose to exhile years ago, but we are living in a system created by the governing powers that be to do and say and act and eat and everything just the way they want us to, and they do this via laws, rules, media reports, religion (you can't tell me the Wachowski's aren't trying to make a point of Neo as the One being a government controlled religion or at least suggesting the possibility of it), we are slaves in a world where we cannot live unless we have the money and the paperwork that says we can live, where to live as a human being means you must be everything that they want you to be or else are banished to the streets as bum, the sad thing is we are not able to wake up like in the Matrix, we are trapped here forever, in this state of controlled hell, and judging by the fact that a majority of the people choose to bitch about how fucked up the world is yet not act on them, I don't expect anyone to rise above it all and initiate a revolution to free us from the shackles of a dominating empire focused on the idea that the people in power are the actual citizens of humanity, and everyone else is just the ants, the cattle, the robots to do their dirty work

Actually, the video game Enter the Matrix explains that the Oracle is "reprogrammed" to look different in the third movie so a different actress will play her. Haven't heard to much about Chong's son, kinda sucks that Tank wasn't in the sequels, makes Link's character seem kinda flat considering he should've been Tank! Notice how they make it a point to refer to Dozer and not Tank in Reloaded, notice how Tank's death was never even really explained because it would've been a waste of time ....hmm..whatever beef is going on between the studio and him must be big.

Some other questions i forgot. How is the Oracle going to make an appearence in the third movie? The woman who originally played her is now deceased. Is she even going to be in it? Also, does anybody know how the court case if the guy that played Tank vs. Warner Bros. going? Why wasnt he allowed in movies 2 and 3?

Amen on that last statement, Brisvegas1

I'm having problems agreeing with a lot of these theories. Although many seem to be good assumptions (like rhia's Persphony is the Mother theory and basically all the Smith theories) i still cant grasp the matrix within a matrix theory or the EMP theory. i just hope #3 fills in the holes.

By the way, i think the theory revolving around the sunglasses meaning something for those who fight is a little to out there for me. If you watch movies like Mission Impossible 2 or Blade you notice how the shades miracuosly stay on as if they were super-glued. Its just a way for Warner Bros. to make they're movie look cool. I personnaly would rather watch Morpheous blow shit up wearing shades just because they make the brother look more bad ass. And the cameras paying explicit detail to Neo breaking Smith's shades in the first movie? They just wanted to show how much Smith was getting beaten. But of course, it is a theory and i dont know because the third movie isnt out yet, i just like to vent some thoughts onto this site.

By the way, isnt Persephony that prostitute from Brotherhood of the Wolves? i thought she looked familiar.

um...no..the Architect said "please" merely because he did not agree with the title of the Oracle since he knows more than anyone that she is no Oracle, merely an intuitive program created by the machines to calculate precise probabilities in order to understand why man does what man does. Her research led to the concept of choice, and that gave the machines enough information to create a Matrix that would maintain and would not fail as the first Matrix (the perfect version) and the second (the one based on mankinds grotesqueries)did. Persephone just wanted a kiss to remember what it was like to be in love. She said that the Merovingion was just as in love with her as Neo was with Trinity. The biggest point that they were trying to make in the Matrix Reloaded was that the computer programs, not just the Oracle, had the ability to feel emotions. Smith, Persephone, the Merovingion at one point, The Keymaker, they all developed human like characteristics while being in the Matrix. No, the Oracle is the Mother, not Persephone...and she is so for good reason, because she was one of the few machines that was able to understand the humans on a deeper level, a spiritual level. The Oracle is still a renegade program, however, no longer a servant of the machines but definately a slave of someone as it appears in the video game. From the sounds of the conversation she had with Neo on the bench, she believes in a world where man and machine can live together in harmony, and she, like Morpheus, and everyone else, have faith that Neo will save everyone, both men and machines from the slave life of the Matrix. Yup...multiple revolutions.

the wife Persphony is the Mother of the Matrix, from what I believe about the story.i believe she is the emotional program that the artitech was talking about, but Neo was thinking of the Oracle but the Artitech said, "please" when the Neo mentioned the Oracle as the Mother. So it seems that Neo didn't catch it on who the actual mother of the matrix was.Plus being an emotional program, she wanted to feel Neo through the Kiss.

ok..these arent my words but i thought i would share them and get your opinions on it..( i was chatting with someone and i thought they made sense)

hey DeRais...we're living in a matrix? hey buddy, its just a movie. We are over analyzing? umm ok. I think "over analyzing" is better than trying to live the movie.

Then again, if you are right...I would love to "wake up."

Delta Nu - 0096

All this talk of individuals who've seen a movie yet have developed endless theories that negate each other's theories. Grr...by the time Revolutions comes out and reveals to us exactly what the fuck is going on...I'm not sure If I'm gonna care about it too much...wracking my brain about it all right now....they say the Matrix in a Matrix idea is stupid, Neo as a robot sounds illogical! Grrrrr!!!

A couple of thoughts about clock maker universes:

1.much like a scientific experiment you would want to control extraneous (random) variables as much as possible. i.e. if in one version of the matrix Oranges are... well... orange, then they are in all versions of the matrix. Following on from this - you would want all the clockmaker universes to have identical initial starting conditions. (As an aside - I am reminded here of the early experiments in chaos theory - from which we get the now famous concept of the butterfly effect. Simulations that start off with very nearly identical states end up in wildly divergent states because of the perpetuation and magnification of those tiny initial differences.)



Now this idea of the matrix as a clockmaker universe can be coupled with statements by the Architect, which says essentially "You(r life is) are the sum of a remainder of an unbalanced equation inherent to the programming of the matrix..... a harmony of mathematical precision." Together you get the idea here that the only thing that differs from one iteration of the matrix to another is the nature of the code (embodied / carried by the one) which is inserted back into the source to "reload" the matrix. This to me suggests that the humans are clones - a cypher in one matrix will be a cypher in another. Genetic variability (and any differences in responses to stimuli that it might cause) would not be allowed to pollute the purity of the system.

Now this is where things get a little wild.

2. If all the various iterations of the matrix start off identically then the concept of time in the matrix universe is seriously loopy compared to the reality that we inhabit.

You could almost make the argument that what we are seeing is not iterations of the matrix, but parallel simulations. Something along the idea of the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics. I am tempted to think about the "stars" - the points of light seen when neo first enters the room to talk to the architect - could each of them represent another iteration of the matrix? Could the Architect's "control room" represent some sort of singularity - a point of interface for something above and beyond the matrix that has access to all the various "iterations". Could the screens then represent not possibilities of neo's "conversational responses" that he might make, but in fact are representation of each of the many versions of the matrix where neo does make the "choice" portrayed on the screen.

The film is of course a linear narrative - we can only follow one thread of the many possibilities, but for a moment - while we see the screens, we get an idea of what an oracle level view of the matrix is like - with every possibility laid out in parallel, needing only the the thread of intentionality/choice to tie everything together.

Sure this is just another matrix within a matrix / turtles all the way down type of idea. But the point is that we are following the path of "the one" - the series of choices that lead us out of these recursive iterations of the matrix.

So lets recap: The matrix/universes start the same - except for the code of the one. They are clockwork universes, but in spite of this, over "time" they diverge due to the minute differences in their initial conditions provided by "the one's" code. We don't get to see it all - we don't get to see the various iterations of the matrix where trinity doesn't get up, where neo is unable to see that there is no spoon, where neo doesn't break the vase. We only get to see the narrow slice of the "choices" that see neo enter the door to the Architects control room.

And here the W. bro's have performed another neat trick.... There is a binary choice.

Left door or Right door.

What is this - it is a double slit experiment . Go read the link.

Ok back with me - so light exhibits the properties of a particle and a wave. when you get a device that can emit such a small amount of light that it emits only a single photon- you would expect that photon to act like a particle. Like a billiard ball - it can only pass through one of the slots not both. Similary you would expect that Neo can pass through only one of the doors not both.



But hey - what do you know - its's a quantum universe after all - and that single photon of light acts like a wave as well as a particle and it "interferes" with itself - it acts as if it had passed through both slits.

I wonder if neo is the same - if he is acting as both a particle and a wave, might he not be interfering with himself too? If all those iterations of the matrix where "the one" chooses to return to the source are suffering interference from from the ones where "the one" doesn't and vice versa.

Ok now lets push things even further out on a speculative limb.

Might this be the explanation for Neo's ability to stop the squiddies.

(I am tempted to go even further and say that there are some universes where he doesn't stop the squiddies - we just don't see / slash follow them.)

It is very easy for a prophecy to be true, when all possibilities exist simultaneously. You just ignore all the poosibilities / universes / matrix iteratons where the prophecy hasn't come true.

I haven't yet worked out quite what the ramifications of this theory are for how the movie might play itself out. Hell - it is so seriously speculative that I consider it to be pretty unlikely. But, still, it is an interesting alternative to the binary of the "matrix in a matrix" VS. "the zion is the real world" arguments.

ps. has anyone here read the works of Greg Egan? I wonder if his novels Permutation City, Distress and Diaspora have anything to tell us about the nature of reality in the matrix. (Here is a hint - Egan's work is way more noodle baking than the matrix)

I guess that is something for another post...

Come to http://www.kottke.org/03/05/030515the_matrix_r.html for more

This is a post for Truth be Told:

Please pull the stick out of your exterior and realize that it was just a joke. I am not trying to turn this site into Happy Hour, i just merely thought some people could find the humor in these subjects. You apparently are not one of them.

AA Man/Truth be Told

There's a physical size limit for creatures without lungs as well. It's to do with gaseous diffusion and surface area to volume ratios. Back in the day, the oxygen content of the atmosphere was a lot higher, so you could have bigger creppy crawlies.

rhia,

The Merovingian is a program. The Oracle tells Neo that he is "a very dangerous program, one of the oldest of us." So he has been inside the Matrix for a long time. He has a need to keep the Matrix going because that's where all his power resides. So the way I see it, the Merovingian needs to get Neo to the source so the Matrix will be perpetuated. The Merovingian wants the human race to continue its existence. Without humans, there is no need for the Matrix, and without the Matrix there is no kingdom for him to rule. If the One does not disseminate the code, the system will crash and all humans inside the Matrix will die (at least according to the Architect).

amen truth...

so, can anyone explain why the french gentleman could be around for more than one Neo if he is human..or did i miss it and hes only a computer program...

do the people in the matrix actually die or only the people in Zion?

Actually due to the intrinsic nature of exoskeletons it is impossible for bug to evolve to a monstrous size. the exoskeleton would becom impossibly thick inorder to support its own weight and to protect the soft insides....A little Discovery Channel knowledge....now can we please keep the post on this site intelligent...because those who attempt humor fail miserably...this is a Matrix Reloaded/Revolutions speculations forum...Not a comedy central tryout post....

Regarding the "Cocktrix" dilemma, you think due to all the nuclear war and the span of a hundred years, cockroaches would have mutated and probably could be human sized. The machines could then enslave the cockroaches and plug them in if they ran out of humans. However, i dont think id go see that movie and then Powerade would be really up the creek.

Just another thought - but if smith has taken over every human in the matrix - there will not be any need to save any humans there - you could just switch it off. Wit an entire worl of smith infected humans on one side and the population of zion on the other - it would make saving zion even more important. (last bastion of humanity and all that jazz)

Hey folks - there is a MEGA Matrix Reloaded Explained thread going on over at http://www.kottke.org/03/05/030515the_matrix_r.html .

Not that there isnt good stuff going on here, ;) but sometime you just want... MORE!

The best stuff, in terms of figuring out what the movie is all about, starts about half way down.

Be careful as you get to the end of the thread though, because they have started speculating what is going to happen in the next movie..... and you may want to just watch it rather than hearing about it in advance ;)

In terms with Zionite beliefs I would say that the sacrifice of 6 billion humans is the Utilitarian thing to do in their eyes...

Here's a question that just occurred to me:

Imagine what would happen if suddenly the Matrix were to crash or "lock up". Everyone would probably die. So basically in order to save every human connected to the Matrix, Neo and the rest of the Zionites, that are awakening minds and freeing them from the matrix, would have to perform some kind of mass awakening. How can Neo save every human being connected to the Matrix if only 1% of the population rejects it? And that 1% don't really know what's going on. He would have to somehow convince the 99% of population that accepts the matrix as reality, that it was not reality,and that machines were enslaving them to provide energy. Bottom line: most would not believe it. He would be seen as a lunatic.

Even if he could some how convince 99% of the population of earth to "take the red pill" let's think about the logistics behind such an act:

Millions of people ranging from the ages of 1 day to over 100 years old suddenly awaken, and find themselves inside of pod full of pink jelly connected to some kind of device with wires and cords protruding from all their orifices and limbs. Suddenly they realize that they are miles above the ground on a ledge the size of a bathtub surrounded by hairless, humanoid-looking creaters in a similar predicament. Then they see the giant, insectoid robots unplugging everyone around them.

Most would die from shock and cardiac failure.

The rest, if they somehow survive, what happens to them? Most will lose their minds and mass panic erupts. Some become hysterical and jump to their deaths from their pods or commit suicide some other way. Others become homicidal kill everyone around them. The rest simply run around like mad, looking for some recognizable structure or something to hide in.

Even if some keep their wits and managed to get out alive - what happens to them?

They would the basics: Food, water, shelter, and heat.

Where would all of these people go, Zion is not THAT big is it?

How do they get to Zion? They don't even know it exists.

Most would need surgery to repair their muscles.

It looks like the only solution is to sacrifice all the people connected to the matrix in hopes of destroying the machines. Then Zion restarts the human race.